(DW) Ok and can you tell me a little bit about your family background? Um in the area where you lived when you were a child?

Transcription

1 Interviewee: Shirley McKasy Date of Interview: October 9 th 1998 Interviewer: Debra Williamuson Location: Baraga, Michigan Start of Interview: (Debra Williamuson) I am interviewing my mother who is Shirley Shelifoe Mckasy who attended Northern Michigan university and will be talking about um some of her life experiences and her experience on campus as a student. Mom what is your birth date? (Shirley McKasy) I was born April 9 th (DW) Ok and can you tell me a little bit about your family background? Um in the area where you lived when you were a child? (SK) I was born and raised in Baraga, Michigan and I lived here until I was oh let s see after I graduated from high school and then at nineteen years old I went to Minnesota found root there. Yeah I lived here in Baraga um we moved to little communities um like Bear Town and Truemanvill [Spelled Phonetically] you know those little areas like that. That s where I was fairly, most Native Americans and you know families that lived there in those places. (DW) How many families um lived together in Bear Town? (SK) Um let s see I think there was about um about ten homes up, but there but my grandma and grandpa they had a house. And my uncle Tom and his wife and Family had a house there and Aunt Merslia [Spelled Phonetically] had a home there, they had about ten children and um oh Richard lived there. Cardinal. [Spelled Phonetically] The Cardinals lived there. And let s see the Deshane s [Spelled Phonetically] the Deshanes lived there but you know once in a while they would change but it was mostly relatives that lived out there. (DW) How many years did you live there as a child? (SK) Oh let s see I suppose uh about twice we moved back there, we lived there maybe four years the first time and then moved back to Baraga for a while and a couple years we moved back out there again I think that time we were probably out there about four or five years. Me and my grandma, my mother s parents passed away so she inherited their home in Baraga so we moved there. (DW) And how old were you then? (SK) When we moved? Uh I guess I was probably around twelve maybe.

2 (DW) How many brothers and sisters did you have? (SK) Um I had well actually I had two sisters and one brother but we lost of my little sisters. (DW) And um what did um grandma and grandpa do for a living? (SK) Well my dad worked in a he worked in he was a lumber you know a lumber jack they brought him to the. into the into the woods and stay there in these camp for a week at a time and just come home on the weekends. So that they had --- those big saws and you know cutting logs. (DW) Mmhm yeah. (SK) So that s what he did in his younger years and then when the mines opened up here then he worked in the mines up until just before he passed away so. (DW) And grandma she was. She pretty much was a housewife? Or? (SK) Yeah she was a housewife she never did work out. She worked hard enough at home so she didn t have to. [Chuckles] Didn t have to time work out of the home. (DW) What about schooling? Where did you go to school? (SK) I went to Baraga grade school and Baraga High School both. (DW) Did you like your experiences at school? (SK) Yes I liked school very much! Um from the time I was all excited to go to Kindergarten and I remember I still have my kindergarten she is still living, she is ninety five years old right now. Yeah I yeah I pretty much enjoy school, I was in the band and choir. We used to travel, choir used to travel from different towns you know they would have um you know go around different choir you know singing and the band would go along sometimes. We all wore long black skirts and white blouses. (DW) What did you play? (SK) In the band? (DW) Mhm. (SK) Mellophone. [Laughs] I just played anything to get in there. (DW) I never knew that! (SK) [Laughs]

3 (DW) I don t even know what a mellophone is. Um what kind of things did you do for recreation? (SK) While I was school you mean? (DW) Um while you in school and when you were out of school. (SK) Well while I was in school I liked to play basketball, um we had a real active gym teacher that used to teach us a lot of things. You know play different games and stuff like that, exercises and everything. We used to sit and play jacks for hours, when we were kids my cousins and I. We would sit out on the front porch and we were really good at you know that s why we would play for so long! We used to jump rope you know and do all the good fun things, play house. We play house for hours you know dolls and all that. When we lived in Bear Town we had you cross the road and the woods and wed made a house out there you know. With all of our little dolls and our furniture and their food and then play all day out there. (DW) What kind of chores were you responsible for? (SK) Well I was just talking about that today with one, a couple of my cousins that I grew up with and we would one of the chores we talked about was hauling the water. (DW) How far did you have to go? (SK) Well let s see they usually lets see when we lived in Bear Town it was just between they put one pump between two homes. And then we moved to Baraga we had to walk let see our house pass another house and then we would get to the pump. So that was quite the ways but we didn t mind it, it was you know we got used to it. (DW) What did you carry the water in? (SK) Uh we used to have a wagon. Put the piles on the wagons and then go over to --- haul them back home. We went --- to use our ---. [Chuckles] (DW) Sounds like they kept you busy. (SK) Uhuh! (DW) Were there any major illnesses or diseases that any your brothers and sisters experienced? (SK) I guess probably the worst thing I can remember is -- but we had you know we had Whooping Cough and Measles and all the normal things. But I don t remember having any real major illnesses. (DW) Um what kind of religion did you practice?

4 (SK) We were brought up Catholic. (DW) Um when did you attend Northern Michigan University? (SK) Let s see I graduated there in Then I must have started about 86 I believe yeah the fall of 86. Yeah because I went two and half years. (DW) Ok, did you live in Marquette or did you commute from Baraga? (SK) I um, I always got apartments down there in Marquette um although I came home to Baraga on the weekends and towards the last couple months or a month before I graduated I would commute. I did have cousins living down there that I would stay with in Ishpeming so. (DW) Um what was it like for you when you first started back to school like first of all getting finical aid signed off and lined up. Did you have a difficulty with that? (SK) Well I remember I was uh I didn t know anything about going you know college and what you had to do or anything. But and require where to go and talk to the treble? The one that handles the educational part of the treble so she helped me a lot too. And also it wasn t you know really difficult it is just knowing where to go and what papers to fill out you know and stuff like that. But I remember it was it seemed like a lot of work at first when I first went. Going here and going there getting your books and you know. Seemed overwhelming but I never gave up though times I was tempted! (DW) How many credits did you take the first semester? (SK) Uh let s see I think I took twelve the first semester. Just to start off with that would you know that would be enough. (DW) Did you always, when you started out um the area that you picked to study and just stick with it? Or did you start on one (SK) Oh no I stuck right with what I had chosen to be. (DW) What was your chosen area? (SK) I was substance abuse counseling. It s just I found out what classes I had to take and you know just stuck right with that so. (DW) What motivated to become a counselor? (SK) Uh well I guess well I guess when I was working up at the tribal center and I was working in the Budya treatment program. Anyway I got motivated there when I saw the people going you know observing the people going through their treatment program and how they would look when they were finish you know. You know you can just see that from the day they came in and the day they left was just a total change in their personality. You know and in their

5 life and their hopes and dreams for the future because they learned to live sober for I think it was a six week program up there. So that s where I learned a lot about chemical dependency there. Although I had quit drinking before I went in there um I began to look at areas where I had a problem, you know myself that mine was evidently was a problem. I was just fortunate enough to be able to stop on my own and so anyway got through there I got motived myself to start going to women s group in L'anse and for the -- counselor. After listening to my stories and all that they agreed that treatment would do me a lot of good and so I went to Minnesota St. Johns Hospital had a beautiful program there. So I went there and its really it s a wonderful experience to be able to have a month you know to yourself to just work on things and to be able to talk to people and as far as I am concerned I think everybody should could have that kind of an opportunity. You know if they have a drinking problem or not. So it was a wonderful experience so when I left there and I came back home and I guess I just kept getting motived more and more and like I said after working with the counselors up there at Uda [Spelled Phonetically], I wanted to help people. So I decided to go to college and at first I had I did have some degrees from working at Uda that I --- you can t just you find out you have to have more and just go. Just a simple paper you know that you put interview work with chemical dependent people. So that s why I went to college. (DW) Yeah. Um so some of the classes you took from, which classes you know inspired you at Northern Michigan University? (SK) Well I had, I was very fortunate I had very good professors, every one of them. Um each class was actually was we had fun, we had our serious times you know not so serious times and because I was I suppose because I was older. I mean I wasn t treated you know like youngster I was treated more like an equal you know by the professors so. I guess I shared a lot with them too, they learned a lot from me also you know. And I learned from the children, from the younger people too that went. It was really, it seemed like there was no difference in age, you know we were all friends all in the same boat you know. So I met several that were my age and you know made some lasting friendships in college. The Elvlan [Spelled Phonetically], the Elvlan. (DW) Are you still in touch with any of the students? (SK) Uh one of the gals I hear from occasionally you know when we were a couple of them live in --- and to go and see them. (DW) Which professor had an impact on your career? (SK) Well let s see Pat Tickla [Spelled Phonetically] who I had her for my counseling class and she was a very good, she gave us a lot of feelings of, good feelings about ourselves you know. But she never you know run us down or made us feel foolish or you know, some of things that we had to do in that class you know like to give a little lecture and things like that. It was scary but we did it you know.

6 (DW) Yeah. (SK) Always gave us a pat on the back and made us feel good so but I liked every one of them and I learned something from all of them you know. Yeah so I will always remember them. (DW) What was your. I guess your fondest memory of going to school? (SK) Oh let s see the fondest there are many of them. I guess some of the fondest memories I have are, we had this Native American um they call call that (DW) Children of. (SK) The room where we went, where we meet you know and visit and talk you know and help each other. And what was that, that was it was a Native American (DW) Anishinabe club. (SK) Some kind of Yeah well it was something like that but it wasn t named that at the time. But I remember we used to go out to dinners and things too through that. I remember when my mother one time and we really had All those nice things that were done for us like that made us realized that they either recognizing that we are interested in going to college or going to college. So therefor is full appreciation things you know because it is a hard place to go to college especially when you are older.[chuckles] (DW) So you got a lot of support from grandma? (SK) Oh yes. (DW) And how about from your tribe? (SK) Yup I did from the tribe too. (DW) What about your aunties? (SK) Oh yeah they all supported me. But --- came to my graduation and my mother was there and my brother and my fiancée at the time. So it was my daughter and my granddaughter came. (DW) Yeah I was going to stay don t forget us! (SK) I had to stop and think about who came! (DW) Came all the way to Minnesota (SK) I had a lot of encouragement. Ever so often I think about different things from you know that happened in certain classes too that you know that impact on me too. (DW) What about extracurricular types of actives? Spin offs from college?

7 (SK) You mean? (DW) I am thinking about children or people? (SK) Oh that. Yeah I did the Training People Program. (DW) That was for Native American kids? (SK) Native American children and it was just marvelous to have to do those classes and I met another Native American girl worked with me on that. She was a lot younger than me, but we worked really well together. And you know to see the children open up you know it was wonderful. Um I did a lot at the shelter home too down there. Extra you know extra things. (DW) In Marquette? (SK) Mmhm. Shelter home in Marquette and we had a class on oh what to do in you know for running into abusive situation or man is abusing his wife or whatever. We had a lecture and training too on how to, what to do in that kind of a case. If we worked at a shelter home you know what to do. So when the women called or once your came in and how to go to court with them you know all that part of abused women. So I learned all that through there. That s been such a lot but I was in quite a lot of them. But I remember I ran a codependent group over at the hospital and it was running late internship and I also counseled I had to, I was you know as a counselor worked over there and also and that was just, that was really wonderful. Um they treated me you know real well, kept giving me lots of pats on the back and so when you get that you makes you feel like you know, it gives you confidence you know to do, you know to do what you are meant to do. I guess they felt that I was a natural born counselor because I took to it so well. The fact is they wanted me to stay, they wanted me to stay and work and they kept after me. Um but I deiced to go back to Minnesota because that you know that s where my children were and all that. You know so even after I left when I d see Pat she would say you know Shirley you got a job anytime it would make me feel good. And then I had enough at the job at the shelter home at L ans too. And Ross Lizna [Spelled Phonetically] out there towards near --- there is another reservation over there somewhere. (DW) Yeah, (SK) Yeah they wanted me down there too so I had plenty of opportunities around me for work. (DW) So people would recognizing that you had a special ability especially with Native people (SK) Yes, native people they want me yeah. And that does take special ability too because I know they are hard to work with, they work better with one of their you know one of their own counselors. But there is quite a bit of shortage on Native American counselors you know so. And when I went to Minnesota I got a job at Jewel Fair Banks and I helped open up a drunken on Payne Avenue. Um I helped open it and all that I just never really, I mean I liked it there a lot, I

8 liked Jewel Fair Banks, I liked the whole staff. I really liked I worked there two years and I don t know I just didn t seem too, you know I didn t seem to enjoy that as well. And then I went to work at a girls youth home for girls. Um Jane Dickman [Spelled Phonetically] it s called and where I worked with girls from age probably fifteen to eighteen around there. It can be hard to work with they can be you know real sweet but they can be really tough too. So that was a very good experience and I along well with all of the girls you know. One thing you had in her life, I mean I had to be stand up to them because otherwise they like to you know knock you down. I still see um this one gal who was real tough, I still see her once in a while and she just looks at me and she just you know respects me now because I had to get tough with her. That is so wonderful to see, every once in a while I will run into them one of my past clients. And I worked at the hospital in Hundson, Wisconsin and that was good too. They would get Native Americans in there occasionally but they didn t have very good success there with them you know that I know of. I knew a few of them went out to drink the next day uh I was running the family program there so I didn t have a one to one contact you know. But they did ask me to talk with you know to talk with them, when they couldn t and they would ask me what they should do you know. I tried my best but it s not like I actually working with them. Yeah so I knew that, they put you know, they knew how to come in and twist the counselor around their little finger. So I could observe all that but I was powerless to yell you know I was powerless to do that unless to do anything unless they came and asked for my advice I wasn t about to jump in you know. But anyway I did get an opportunity to work a lot of native Americans even in Michigan at Jane Dickman there was an --- that we had a girl or two. So again whether I worked in an all Native American treatment center or not I still had opportunity to work Native Americans. So anyway I don t know if I did the right thing but who knows, I did the right things by going to Minnesota or if I should have stayed here so. But anyway. [Chuckles] (DW) Um like when we were going to school what was kind of some of the low points, were there? We were talking about what you really enjoy which is like what was some of the hard points? Or were there any? (SK) Hard points? I guess there was the prejudices in the schools there back you know, there is still in the schools now but it was really bad back then. Um I guess like for me I don t know it was as bad for me as it was for some of my cousins. Especially that if you were real dark you know some of the ones that got picked on. (DW) So this is back in like the elementary years? (SK) Um yeah. (DW) High school years? (SK) Yes. But we had we had our own circle of friends you know. We learned how to um put on a front like you are not going to scare me you know what I mean. You had to stick your hair in the air and walk around like just dare them to say anything you know. So you learned how to

9 walk around with a chip on your shoulder you know so. I think that had a lot to do with me getting through too. They knew better they were afraid not to, you know to say much to me anyway you know. Um yes I remember, well my mother always kept because in her day she was, they were put into convents taken away from their parents, put into convents. You know they weren t allowed. (DW) Boarding schools. (SK) They weren t allowed, yeah boarding schools. They weren t allowed to speak their, you know any of their language and if they did they got really reprehended for it. And what they wanted to do was to stomp out, stamp out all Native American culture. And they were not allowed to have anything around the home and so therefor we never learned any of our language when we were growing up. Which is really sad and because today they are struggling, we are struggling to try and learn it you know. Um but my mother, she had learned some from father she could say words but not full sentences and she could understand what somebody else was talking. Evidently, her mother and her father still spoke it to each other and so. But my grandfather Shulsa [Spelled Phonetically] he spoke French and my mother never learned that, I suppose because she wasn t home as a little girl because of this boarding schools and stuff. So anyway that it was you know it was a problem growing up but you know, I never really let it stop me. My brother he was the same way, he got along well, he was in sports and he had lots of friends, as well as Native American his cousins you know. See the boys didn t seem to have as much problem as some of the girls as far as the prejudices. But you know we made it. (DW) What about at Northern then? Did you experience any prejudices? (SK) No never. Nope that college is just they are so interested in Native Americans and their culture you know and helping to bring out the person you know. Um I wrote a paper on about Native American women in one of my classes and the professor was so pleased. He said he wrote on my paper, he said beautiful stories about beautiful people. And I still have that paper. (DW) Can I get a copy of that to submit with this? (SK) Sure it s in. (DW) For the records. (SK) I made a copy and send it. (DW) Even if there is a picture of while you are in school or your graduation I could put it all in there. (SK) Oh sure I got graduation pictures. (DW) I ll submit that to the archives.

10 (SK) Yeah sure. (DW) And if there is anything else you might have from school that you d like to you know put in there too. I think that would be good. While you were on campus, you say you didn t really have any problems. People treated you good it was a lot different than being in Baraga? (SK) Yes! Very much. I had, no I had a lot of support in Baraga well during my college I had a lot of support here, from everybody. You know but going to school there it was certainly definitely be different than be going to school in Baraga. Especially where I saw my cousins taking so much abuse. (DW) Now you are talking about um the abuse you saw your cousin go through. (SK) Uh-uh. It was almost like living in two different worlds, I guess it was because Native American culture you know, we are all very close you know. We all have our grandparents and you know and they would do, you know do little things for us, tell us stories and you know. Normally we would have bingo you know and things like that. You know we played well together, there is a closeness in Native American community and it is still there you know despite the problems that Baraga has. (DW) What would you say your cousins going through? (SK) Prejudice. I mean just you know being pushed aside in a corner somewhere. They got to the point where they didn t seem to have much fight in them you know. They just, some of them you know they just walked around got through the day and that was it you know. (DW) Did they call them anything? (SK) Oh I am sure. Yeah. (DW) How about the ---, how were they treated? (SK) Really don t know. I didn t remember I know my brother he never seemed to have any problems. Whether he did or not he never said anything to me. So I am sure they, he had some you know. (DW) Did all of your brothers and sisters graduate from school? (SK) Yes, that was one of the, that was one thing my father insisted on. He said all my children are going to graduate from high school because they didn t have, in his family they didn t have the opportunity to do that. They had to go to work at very young ages. So that s, he lived to see them all graduate all of his children. But he didn t get to see his first, he was hoping to get to see his first grandsons, his grandson graduate that was his dream. But he died at a young age, fifty seven so he didn t make it.

11 (DW) And (SK) When he passed away? Yeah about twelve then? (DW) Probably. (SK) Ten twelve maybe something like that. (DW) There is a question that about your philosophy about substance abuse counseling. What is some of your beliefs about methods I guess of how to counseling people? What s lets thing what is the most important? (SK) Let s see. Well the way already, it keeps changing ok. When I went to school, when I went to treatment and I liked the way they run the program. It was a thirty-day intensive care and you stayed there. And the insurances were paying at the time for the people to do that. And even, even before I went to school I noticed you know I kept hearing that little differences and different ways of counseling and treatment. Today now I don t like it at it s mostly an outpatient, mostly outpatient. They don t, it isn t seen anymore as so, as um as so you know, you know serious a serious problem anymore. (DW) It was treated like a diseases you mean? (SK) It was treated like a disease. (DW) When you first go (SK) That s right and that s what it is because you see these people who, I worked as a lot of outpatient people and they said they came there on their own choice. But what they had failed to admit to, what they admit to is that they were sent there because they got a stop for drunk driving. So they would give them the ultimatum to either go to jail or treatment you see. So they would come to treatment and they would say that they, you know they didn t have to because they were giving that other ultimatum. But (DW) Um this tape is going to be. In the transcript when this interview will be put in the archives and what I was wondering is what do you think, what do think would be so important information for a person to know about in the year 2099 about today. About life in today s world. And probably about in your field. (SK) I don t know if there would any kind of a counseling program in that many years from now you know. Because maybe they will just have a pill for them or something because they are already talking about things like that you know. So I just I see the substance abuse problems sort of just fading away. It s not at all like it used to be. Um they don t have the intensive care anymore like they did. And to me I think they need that, a person needs that you know. Um they need to work on, they need to turn their whole life around you know from what I see, you know from what I have seen. And they need help for a long time afterward so they can move on.

12 (DW) It s more than just the substance that they need to turn their lives around. (SK) Right it s yes you have to learn how to live without alcohol because before everything involves alcohol. You know you don t got anywhere, if you go to the beach you have to have booze with you, you have to any place you got you know. Restaurant um somebody s home, you know it has become such a way of life um that people don t know how to, they don t know how to communicate without alcohol in them. See so that therefore you have to learn. Anyway, a counselor told me that and she said after you are sober for several years you know you become. Alright what the alcohol did was to help you come out and be able to talk and laugh and you know relax with people. And she told me that someday I would do that without alcohol and she is right. You know it is more fun. So but it takes a long time that s why I don t agree with these quick patient groups. For some it might work but I don t think, I just don t like them that well at this point. (DW) Ok um we are going to end here. Um my mom is getting over Bronchitis and she is having a little hard time talking right now and we pretty much covered all of our topics anyway. So thanks mom. End of Interview