Central California War Veterans Oral History Project. Allan J. Ostrow. Henry Madden Library, California State University Fresno. November 8, 2012.

Transcription

1 Central California War Veterans Oral History Project Allan J. Ostrow Henry Madden Library, California State University Fresno. November 8, Today s date is Nov 8, This is Careen Wong, conducting an interview with Mr. Allan J. Ostrow. We are in Henry Madden Library, at California State University Fresno. This interview is part of the Central California War Veterans Oral History Project. The tape and transcript will be kept permanently at the Henry Madden Library at California State University, Fresno. CAREEN WONG: Uh, so first of all I just want to make sure I got your name spelled right. It s A-L-L-E-N ALLAN J. OSTROW: No, it s A-L-L-A-N CW: It s A-L-L-A-N, ok. Uh, J. Ostrow O-S-T-R-O-W. AJO: Correct. CW: OK, and may I know when and where you were born? AJO: I was born in uh, Jersey City, New Jersey in March 17th, CW: Oh, OK, and uh, when did you move to Fresno or AJO: Well, my parents moved to California in And they moved to LA and they moved down to Orange County, Santa Ana. And I moved to Fresno in CW: How old were you then?

2 2 AJO: [Pause] 34. CW: 34? OK, and where are you living right now and what is your current occupation? AJO: I live in Fresno North East Fresno and I m a regional manager with an optical company. CW: Which optical company? AJO: It s called Kenmark Group. CW: Kenmark? How do you spell it? AJO: K-E-N-M-A-R-K Group or Kenmark Optical. It goes by either name and I ve been with them for 17 years. CW: Oh, for 17 years. Is it immediately after you came back from the war? AJO: Oh no, no, no gosh, I had CW: You had different jobs. AJO: Lots of different things. CW: OK. So how was your family like back when you were young and still a child, living in New Jersey then moving to California? AJO: It was a fun family. CW: Fun family, like how? AJO: Well my dad used to be in show business when he was young. He was in Vaudevillians Burlesque. CW: Oh.

3 3 AJO: And he, when he was in the Army World War 2, he was in the USO shows and entertained troops. CW: Oh so, was in the Army or he was there to perform? AJO: No, he was in the Army and before he was in the Army he was an entertainer in Vaudevillian in Burlesque and he worked with a lot of the old, old movie people and Vaudeville people. CW: Oh, that s interesting. So what kind of movies does he do or what kind of acts? AJO: Well he wasn t in movies, he just put on shows for CW: What kind of shows? AJO: Well he, if you go to USO shows, when I was in Vietnam, I saw Bob Hope, he did that kind of a show back then 1943, 44, 45, when he got out. So he just entertained the troops he sang and he danced in this part of a big group. CW: Oh OK, does he travel around a lot in that case? When he was part of the show? AJO: Uh. CW: When he was part of the show? AJO: No, he s stayed mostly in New York and New Jersey I think. I never really asked him actually so I don t really know. CW: But how does it feel looking at your dad performing? AJO: Well I never saw him because I was only 1 year old when he got out in the Army. CW: Oh, OK.

4 4 AJO: So I was born in 1944 and he got out in So I didn t know what he did and when I was growing up, he started working outside of show business. He worked in a jewelry store. CW: Mmm OK. AJO: And you know, I just, I just know him as dad. CW: How about your mother? AJO: My mother had a high school education and she was kind of uh, the leader of the house the disciplinarian. CW: Oh, what she said AJO: Oh yeah, what she said went. We did everything that she said. My dad did everything she said. CW: Really? AJO: Yeah. It was just kind of Okay, you know, we ll do it any way you want you want, that s OK, So, it was fun. With him being an entertainer and you know, I, I don t think I never came home with a joke that he didn t know. CW: Really? AJO: And if I told him a joke, he d say, No, that s not how it goes, it goes like this. So, it was fun. We had a lot of times a lot of good times, you know, it, it was fun. CW: Mmm OK. Do you have any siblings? Brothers, sisters? AJO: Uh, a sister that died in 1973 and I have a brother who just died this year CW: Oh, I m sorry.

5 5 AJO: In May. Both of them my sister was a year older and my brother was five years younger. So CW: So what was it like, really interesting growing up in a family full of entertainment? AJO: You know, it was fun because he made a joke out of everything. He was never serious. You know, that s how I kinda grew up too. I just did what I wanted to do and uh, you know as long as I did what I was told and I behaved, you know I ve never got on either of their bad sides. CW: That s good. So you were a good, so you were a good kid when you were young? AJO: I was, I was. I still am, at least they think I still am. CW: Oh, you still are? AJO: Oh you know I got trouble for little things but nothing really CW: Big. AJO: Big. I ve never gotten in trouble with the law, CW: Oh OK. AJO: But I get in trouble with school with the little things, you know, but never uh, never anything bad. CW: OK, and how old were you with the Vietnam War started? AJO: I went in the Army when I was 22 years old. Uh, and when I got out of high school in 1962 everybody was afraid of going to Vietnam. Everybody was afraid of going to war. And, uh, that s the first time I heard of it after I got out of high school and I went to junior college and I started reading the paper and watching the news. And I thought, wow, I don t know.

6 6 CW: What were people saying about the war at that time? AJO: It wasn t a really popular war even back then. CW: Yeah. AJO: And as naive as I was, all I thought about was I ve got to school and get my deferment cause I don t want to go to Vie war, I don t want to go into the Army. I even thought about joining the National Guard but I never really have nerve to do that, so I didn t do it. CW: Uh, and I heard back then, it s the first, uh, war that s televised or in television right? Was it and I heard they didn t really censor it? AJO: Well, you know, I don t remember really watching that much about the war. I kinda kept it at arm s length. CW: Mmm hmm. AJO: And then as it get closer, you know, I kept getting, uh, I think it was a 2-S deferment to keep from getting drafted. I d start the first semester with a full load and I d dropped a couple of classes. And then after four years of doing this of junior college, I started at Long Beach State and I got drafted out of school because I didn t complete four years of college in four years. CW: Oh so that s how you got drafted into the war, after two deferments? AJO: Well I got three or four deferments but I, I, I kept enough units in junior college because I was playing baseball. CW: Oh, OK.

7 7 AJO: So you have to stay eligible and you have to take so many units, you have to get decent grades. CW: Mmm hmm. AJO: So you know, I was always a decent student, not an A student but yeah. CW: What kind what were you, what were you studying at that time? AJO: Oh, I wanted to be a coach. CW: A baseball coach? AJO: Well, any kind of coach a P.E coach. I was going to get my degree my teaching degree. You know once I got drafted, you know maybe when I got out of the Army, I ll get back to school and get a degree. So CW: And uh, can you remember what, what you were doing like, uh, when you found out you got drafted. What was your reaction? AJO: Oh God, scariest day of my life, I ll tell ya. [Laughs] I didn t know what to think. It was I just didn t know. I uh, I talked to uh I had a girlfriend at that time and I told her I got drafted and I got my draft notice and I had to go down and get drafted. And I just thought well, you know, I don t want to go. I had to find a way to get out and I couldn t. CW: What did you girlfriend at that time say? AJO: She was like Oh boy, you know, that s not going to be fun. So, you know, you never know. CW: Yeah, when you got drafted, you received it in the mail right? AJO: Mmm hmm, yes.

8 8 CW: Yeah, so were you 22 at that time? AJO: I think I might have been Yes, I was 22 cause I went in, in December and I think I took my physical or I got the draft notice, like October. Because I remember I was going to Long Beach State and I remember I was in school after about a month or two I got my notice that I had to go for the draft physical. CW: Uh huh. AJO: And it was in Dec 13th and it was in LA and they took us on a bus to LA and I remember walking through the line going station to station, doctor to doctor, and you know, all these tests and things they have you do. And af-afterwards they say OK, get in this line, go in this room. You raise your hand and say OK, I m the Army. And they put you on a bus and drove us to Fort Ord. CW: Oh, so you went to Fort Ord as well. AJO: Yeah. CW: OK AJO: Yeah, it was just from LA the put us on a bus and drove us to Fort Ord that night. So CW: Uh, how does it feel going through like the physical process and all the other men who got drafted as well? AJO: Well, it was really funny because CW: Why was it funny? AJO: Well I, I try to find humor in everything. And you know, everybody s standing around and you re going in line and you re standing in line and they take so many people and go you

9 9 into this room, and you know, the doctor looks at you and you go through this room and the doctor s asking you questions. And they take your blood pressure and they do all these little tests on you, but as we re going around after you know, a couple of hours of just walking upstairs, downstairs, into rooms out of rooms, we walked into one room and there was a woman there with, you know, a wig, her hair and makeup and everything and it turned out to be a guy. And the sergeant, I just remember the sergeant saying to him Well, you do a good job putting on your makeup. And he says Well, I do it every day and I think this guy s just trying to get out at the Army. You know, and these thoughts go through your mind, Now why didn t I think of that? [Laughs] CW: [Laughs] AJO: But you know, you just look at it and you just shake your head and you just go to the next station, wherever they check in. You know, they stand in line and, you know, it s if you re breathing they just send you to the next station, it s not like they really give you any special kind of tests. CW: But was it like nerve-wrecking going through the process knowing you re halfway there to being AJO: Oh God yes! CW: To being drafted? AJO: Yeah, because the last thing I wanted to do was go to war. I didn t want to go into the Army. I just thought, God this is crazy. Here I am, I m not supposed to war, I don t want to go to war, I don t want to go into the Army. CW: I think no one at that time wants to go to war.

10 10 AJO: I didn t even join the Boys Scout because I didn t like uniforms. So it was really CW: Oh really? AJO: Yeah, it was really, it was uh, an eye-opening experience. I just thought Holy cow, they got me. I uh, so CW: Were any of your friends got drafted as well? AJO: Well I remember that there were three of us that went down together for the physical. We all went down to like a bus stop in Orange County and we got on the bus, went up to LA and one of the guys that went up to the uh, the physical. At the end of the day, he didn t get on the bus. He went home. Because when he was younger, he went through a plate glass door and he cut his arm CW: Oh AJO: And he had a big scar from, like his wrist up his arm and they said Well, you probably have some nerve damage, so we re not going to take you. So he went home. And another guy and I both got on the bus, we both went through the physical and we both passed it and we re on our way to Fort Ord. CW: So both of you were drafted into the U.S. Army? AJO: Yes. CW: OK, and during the whole process, the sergeant was was with you right? AJO: No. CW: Oh, no? AJO: No, they just pass you on from one room to another.

11 11 CW: OK. AJO: There was never one person with us during the physical and when we got on the bus to go to Fort Ord, I remember we stopped in Santa Barbara and we can make a phone call then or go to the bathroom or maybe the bus driver stopped to use the bathroom. And after 15 minutes or so, we re back on the bus and continuing our drive to Fort Ord. CW: But the sergeant wasn t with you when you were in the bus driving to Fort Ord? AJO: No, not that I remembered CW: OK. AJO: I honestly don t remember that. CW: OK. So when again did you join the military again? The date? AJO: I was drafted Dec 14, CW: Mmm OK. And during that time were you familiar with the war when you got drafted or you didn t know much about the war? AJO: Well, no, as it got closer and closer to going in, and you know the war started escalating, they already uh, they had a lot of news on TV and they were talking about how many people were killed, and body count and you know, different things like these so every time I saw that on the news, you know, I was just I don t wanna go. CW: So what was your view on the U like the United States involvement in this Vietnam War at that time? AJO: Well, I didn t know much about it then and all I knew was that the United States joined the war to stop the spread of communism in Southeast Asia. And you know, being, uh, gosh,

12 12 independent and really not paying much attention to the news and world events. All I thought about was OK, where s Vietnam? What s going on? OK, a war s going on, I don t wanna go. I didn t even know where Vietnam was. CW: But what happens once you got drafted? Did your perception change? AJO: Well, yeah, well, it did because I thought Ok, I m in it, I got to do a good job CW: Mmm hmm. AJO: I don t want to get in trouble. Just you know, like outside, before I went into the Army, because I never got into trouble, I didn t want to get into trouble, I ll do what they say to do and I ll go in, spend my two years and then get out. CW: And, uhm, you served you said, usually you served for two years right? AJO: Right. CW: But you were in Vietnam for only three and a half months? AJO: Right. See what happens is that my tour of duty was supposed to be two years. CW: Mmm hmm. AJO: And then the Army my duty. CW: Mmm hmm. AJO: And when you first go in they give you tests, and if you score high enough on the test, you qualify for OCS. CW: What s OCS? AJO: Which is Officer Candidate School. You can be an officer.

13 13 CW: Oh, OK. AJO: So I scored high enough and I told them I didn t want to go to OCS. I didn t want to be an officer. I want to go in for two years and then get out and go home and back to school. But I went to basic training. Uh, or we were inducted into the Army at Fort Ord. CW: Mmm hmm AJO: And I remembered since it was before Christmas, they asked us Do you guys anybody wants to go back for the holidays, come back and start your training after the New Years? and I thought Yeah, I want to be home for the holidays. So I remember we had our hair cut, we were all bald, and we got uh, our passes and were all lined up to catch the bus to go back home wherever everybody one is. Like Greyhound buses that take you. Some people to Orange County, some people to Oregon. Wherever you were going, they had buses going to certain locations. And I remembered standing in line, I just thought you know, I looked at one of the headlines at the bus terminal CW: Mmm hmm. AJO: And Walt Disney died just the day before. CW: Oh. AJO: And I thought Wow, OK, I ll, I ll remember this So, you know, I go home and they say you can go home from if I went home on the 14th, I d say it s 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th, something like that, 19th, and we re going be home for Christmas and New Year s and then come back. And then anyway we got on the bus and they told us You have you be back here on the 28th and they told us, you have to be back here on the 28th so you can t spend New Year s at home. And I just thought Well, that s the first lie I remembered. So, everybody was back on the 28th. And December, 66 that year, they had a meningitis scare in the uh, in

14 14 the Army, in Fort Ord and a lot of the places. So, what they were doing is they were sending some troops from Fort Ord up to Fort Lewis, Washington, where I actually went through Basic Training. CW: OK. AJO: I didn t go through it at Fort Ord. CW: Fort Ord. AJO: And there were some people that were in Alaska that came down to Fort Lewis, some people from Fort Lewis went to everybody went to different bases, they kind of switched everybody around. Why, I don t know. But I went through basic training at uh, Fort Lewis, Washington. And that was a two-month CW: Training AJO: Stint. And then after that, my advanced training was going to be at Fort Polk, Louisiana. CW: How do you spell it? AJO: P-o-l-k. CW: Oh, P-o-l-k. AJO: Fort Polk. CW: OK. AJO: And at that particular time, Fort Polk was what they called the training grounds for Vietnam. 99 percent of everybody who went to Fort Polk went to Vietnam and I thought, OK, I don t want to go to Vietnam and since I qualified for OCS, I thought I m going to

15 15 tell them I want to go to OCS. So after, you know, a month or so, they interviewed me and whatever. They accepted me into OCS. And my thinking going into OCS was I didn t want to go into Vietnam as an enlisted man. I thought I wanted to have some say in what was going on, so, and then my underlying fear about going to Vietnam was OK, I ll go to OCS which is six months then you usually get about a year or so in the States and maybe by then before I go to Vietnam, the war would be over. CW: [Laughs] So that s your plan? AJO: That was my plan. I m thinking, I ve got this wired, I got all these figured out. CW: [Laughs] AJO: So I, I started basic training January, February at Fort Lewis, Washington. March and April I went to Fort Polk, Louisiana. Then I got my orders to go to Fort Benning in Georgia for Infantry School OCS and that was going to start in June. CW: Mmm hmm. AJO: And let s see, July, August, September, October, November, December. I got out of I started OCS in June, and I got out in December. I think I graduated December 4 th in So I had been in the Army almost a year then. CW: Oh OK. AJO: And then uh, thinking, OK, I got my orders and they sent me to Fort Campbell, Kentucky. And I thought OK, I ll be there hopefully for a year. CW: What do you there? AJO: Oh, I was just the platoon leader. Just, you know, the regular lowlife second lieutenant job.

16 16 CW: Mmm hmm, what did you do as a platoon leader? AJO: You just where I was is we did a lot of training. And I used what I had learned in OCS to lead to do what they taught us to do. How to lead your platoon and you know, how to organize them, how to, I, I guess maneuver them in a war time zone even though it was just practice for, uhm. CW: For the real war. AJO: For the real war. But some of the guys at Fort Lewis had already come back from Vietnam. A lot of them hadn t. Some of the officers that were in my battalion and my company had been there, some hadn t. So it was a mixture of everything. You learn and you talk to people there about what it s like and you know, Oh, God, I don t wanna go. CW: [Laughs] AJO: It felt like that song, I don t know if you remember it. CW: Uh huh. AJO: But it s General Custer. Please Mr. Custer I don t want to go. CW: Oh yeah, I think I AJO: [Sings] Forward Hooo. They were sure of cavalry, the men of the mighty (correction: 7 th ) Calvary. They went on. But then I just thought, God, I don t want to go. And I thought, you know, maybe after a year at Fort Campbell the war would be over. And I was still hoping it was over in, in uh God, I m trying to think. After I was at Fort Campbell in summer, it s probably about June or July I went to Fort McClellan in Alabama for three weeks for a what s it called CBR School Chemical Biological and Radiological training, you know for

17 17 CW: What do you do in this training? AJO: They teach you how to do like the nuclear bombs and, you know CW: To make them? AJO: What to do in case of a nuclear, and tear gas and mustard gas and all these chemicals they used in warfare. CW: Oh, OK, even uh, what do you call it Orange, Agent Orange and all that? AJO: Well, no, they didn t have that then. They used it in Vietnam but they didn t teach us anything about that. I didn t know anything about that until I got to Vietnam. CW: OK. AJO: But we learned uh, you know, how you deal if there s an atomic bomb or a nuclear bomb and you know, if the enemy uses tear gas and they give you how to use the uh the mask gas mask, these kind of stuff. So yeah, that was three weeks and if you asked me anything about it now I forgot about it. I don t know anything. CW: OK. AJO: And then uh, I went back to Fort Campbell, and then I got my orders to go to Vietnam. But before Vietnam, they sent us to uh, it was Fort Sherman in Panama Canal. CW: Mmm hmm AJO: For uh, jungle training CW: OK. AJO: Kind of acclimated us to

18 18 CW: The jungles there. AJO: The jungles there. The temperatures and whatever and I spent, I think it was two weeks there. And you just, we did everything we thought we would do in Vietnam. CW: Mmm hmm. AJO: You know, the different marches, the trainings, the night maneuvers, the we had what was called uh, Survival Escape Innovation Course. CW: Mmm hmm. AJO: Where they put you out in the middle of nowhere and you got to find your way back to a certain spot. And they have people out there, trying to catch you and when they do catch you, they kind of it s just like as prisoners of war they would harass you. But I didn t get caught so I don t know what did they CW: How did they oh you don t know. AJO: No, no, no, I don t know what they did. But you hear stories about them. CW: What kind of stories? AJO: You just, you know, little shocks with electricity, putting frogs in your mouth and cold water on you. CW: Oh. AJO: Just you know, it s in the middle of the night and it s dark and you know, I don t even remember to be honest. But it s just one of those things where you didn t want to get caught. You know, you did your best to be quiet. You know, for me to be quiet is damn near impossible. [Laughs]

19 19 CW: [Laughs] but still you managed to AJO: I made it through. CW: You made it through AJO: [Laughs] Yeah, I made it through. CW: So was it hard, this training? AJO: Well, it s you get used to it. I was in good shape because I wasn t a great athlete but I was an athlete and I was always in good shape and you know, I could do all these exercises. They give you, uh, these, what they called PT tests Physical Training tests and the maximum score is 500 and I was a good enough athlete that it seems I ve always gotten right around 500 points. CW: Oh that s AJO: And if I didn t get 500 points it was because the, one of the tests you had to run a mile and it was in your Army gear, your Army boots and usually it s on gravel or dirt, or you know, not on a cinder track like the races do now. But you have to do it I think in about 6 minutes and 15 seconds. And sometimes I would make it in under that and would get my 100 points for that particular thing. There were things like run, dodge and jump and low crawl and I can t remember what else. But there were things that you had to do. I always do well because I was a decent athlete and I got my points. So you know, the physical part of it wasn t that hard for me. There were a lot of guys who were couch potatoes before they went into the Army CW: Oh.

20 20 AJO: When they were young, so they couldn t do everything. Oh there were bars, parallel bars that you go hand to hand. CW: Uh huh. AJO: Uh, you go back and forth, back and forth like three, four, five times and you know, it was just a strength thing and you know, I was strong enough then. CW: To do it. AJO: Yeah, but I couldn t do it now. CW: Not now, but back then you could. AJO: But back then yeah, there was nothing they threw at me that I couldn t do. CW: OK, so going back to your infantry training, how was it like in your infantry training? AJO: Well, it was something completely different from what I have ever done. I ve never fired a rifle before I was in the Army and I never fire one after the Army. So when they say Here s your rifle and your gun. And we re going to teach you how to take it apart and put it together. You know, I m the worst mechanic and I can never put anything together. And I joke around every time. You know, I joke and I say things like, you know I took my nose apart just how to see things run. CW: Oh, really? AJO: You know the joke like a cold. But, but I mean, I was so afraid if I took it apart, I m never getting it back together. But after a while, you do it so many times, you know exactly what you re doing. But the training, the marching, the hiking, the running wasn t that much. I remembered we had uh, qualifying on the rifle range and it was at the first time was in Fort Lewis, Washington. It had snowed for two or three days and we were lying in snow and it

21 21 was wet and cold and it was foggy, and you couldn t see the targets. So you re shooting in the general direction of where they re supposed to be. And they say OK, you passed, you qualify, you re this. But they always scared you into thinking no matter what you were doing, if you don t pass this, if you don t do well, you re going to go back and start over again in the next class. So you always had that fear in your mind that God I have to start all over again? I thought well that wouldn t be so bad, cause if I d have to keep starting over and over again and then my two years would be over and they would throw me out. But it didn t work. I did it, I did it. CW: What about the basic training? AJO: Well this is part of basic training. You know, with all the marching, with all the hiking and you know, they do a lot of brainwashing. CW: What kind of brainwashing? AJO: Well they just tell you, you re worthless, you re nothing. You have to do this, and you have to do it my way. There s three ways of doing things. There s the right way, the wrong way and there s the Army way and you re going to do it our way. And they wake you up in the middle of the night and say, OK let s go, we re going to go on a march, we re going on a run. And they just harass you for two months plus give you all the training that you needed like uh, like rifle maneuvering and shooting and what you do if there s an enemy out there. And how you attack them and how you deploy you know, the men and what you have to do. CW: Mmm hmm. AJO: It s just a matter of you know, learning what they want you do and doing it and putting up with it. CW: So the ones who trained you are sergeants?

22 22 AJO: Yes. CW: OK, so can you remember one specific sergeant that you just cannot forget? AJO: Well there were two of them in basic training that I had and every other word out from their mouth was a curse word. CW: [laughs] AJO: And you d remember that. And you know, you just they would call us slimy little [hand gestures]. You know, another dirty words. But you just get used to it. And it s all just us guys and you just laugh about it after a while because it s a game. You know you can do it, you know you re going to do it and you looked at all these sergeants who have done what we re doing and if they could do it, I ve always thought I could do it. CW: Yeah. AJO: It s, it s not that hard. And it s just getting your mind set in a certain way that you re going to do it no matter what. No matter what they throw at you, no matter how hard they try to make it. If they can get through it, I could get through it. CW: Oh OK. So were those sergeants like really mean or like brutal? AJO: They try to be. CW: Or brutal? AJO: They try to be but you just laugh at them. You know, and the more you laugh, the angrier they got and the nastier they got so you kind of bit the bullet and you behave yourself you did what they said. And you just you don t get into trouble. CW: What did they do to you when you laugh at them or don t take them seriously?

23 23 AJO: Well, they make you get up in the middle of the night in your underwear, and put on your helmets without the lining, and your ponchos and you run around the parade field and I mean, stupid things like that. I can t remember all of them but that was one. CW: Uh huh. AJO: Why in the world would they have you out there with your underwear, you know, with your boots on and you can t lace them and you have your rain slicker over you. CW: What s a rain slicker? AJO: It s just like a poncho. Like a serape. You know, the women wear, that kind of thing. And it s just you see guys in trash bags in football game to keep dry from the rain, it s that kind of a thing. And then your the Army helmet, the steel pot that you wear in combat without the liner, so it bounces on your head and hurts you. I mean, so stupid things like this. CW: So did you get into trouble like that before? AJO: No. CW: No? AJO: No. I played the game. And whatever they threw at you, just get up and do. CW: Mmm hmm. AJO: I mean you can complain but it doesn t do any good. And when you re done, we just go back to our barracks, and you laugh at what they did and what they made us do. But you know, it s, it s kind of humbling, and it s when you get drafted and you re going through basic training, they try to humiliate you. CW: Mmm hmm.

24 24 AJO: And you have if you re modest, you ll never make it. Because you know, all the showers are not co-ed there. You know, everybody get in the showers at once just to shower. CW: It s co-ed? AJO: No, it s no co-ed. CW: Oh, OK. AJO: I was just thinking of the word. It would ve been fun. But, it wasn t. CW: Oh, yeah, I m sure for you guys it would ve been fun. AJO: Yeah, oh yeah, it s just showers. You go in and you shower, and you come out and you just done. And then there are toilets and you know, there s ten of them lined up in a row. And if you re modest, you know, you re not going to do well. CW: Yeah. AJO: So you just use to bathroom and you know, go about your way. And you just look at it, everybody s going to be in the same boat, we re all, you know, running around half-naked or naked, you know, embarrassing ourselves. And but it s, it s an experience. I can laugh about it now and I can look back at it and when I was 22 years old, when I went in, you know, it was nothing. It was just something you d have to do for really, I look back for the country. But it was, I know, I wouldn t do it now, I couldn t do it now, I wouldn t want to do it now. CW: But back then, you look back, you actually did it.

25 25 AJO: Yeah, you did it. Yeah, you don t think of anything. You know, when you play baseball, everybody showers together, it doesn t matter anyway. And you know, you got one big group of guys you get close to, and you know you just go about your day. CW: OK, and you were a platoon leader too right, during uh, you told me at which fort again? AJO: Fort Campbell. CW: Fort Campbell. AJO: Yeah, after you know, going through basic training, I was squad leader and you know, they give you like in high school, you know when they line you up in the morning, they have people who are at the front of the line and they call them squad leaders. That s the same thing in the Army and I was a squad leader in the Army. And they always wanted to get somebody who was some kind of an athlete. So I did that, I was a squad leader most of the time. Sometimes they just line you up by how high tall you are and by height you just keep going backwards. And if you re 5 foot 8 [5 foot 8 inches], and you got guys 6 3 [6 foot 3 inches], and you got guys 5 4 [5 foot 4 inches], you re going to be right in the middle of the line so sometimes they just keep you there. It all depends on their whims, how they want to do it. But for the most part, I was a platoon leader after I was out of OCS. CW: Mmm hmm. AJO: After I got my commission. CW: Were you like really harsh or? AJO: No, no, I you know, I just went through I want to get out. Most of the lieutenants after OCS are assigned to a military base and they re platoon leaders. And as you get higher

26 26 in rank, as a captain, you d be a company commander and then a major or colonel could be a Battalion Commander, it all depends on your rank, how many officers above you. And you know, you go from go from second lieutenant to first lieutenant to captain to major, lieutenant colonel, colonel and the majors or the generals. But uh, you just every rank has a certain job that they do and when you go to a certain military base, that s what you do. CW: So, uh, when you went to Vietnam you were 23? AJO: Uh, I m trying to think. In 19 20, I think I was 24 at that time. CW: 24? AJO: Because I was in the States for a year. CW: OK. AJO: So I was at Fort Campbell for a year, Fort McClellan, then Fort Sherman and the jungle training Panama and I got to Vietnam in December of 68 [1968]. And I remembered how scared I was. I was just petrified. CW: Like how? AJO: Because like well, when we get there, they give us a couple of days to acclimate yourself before you actually have join your unit. Because they bring you into a, a big, uh, like a pool area and they decide what unit you re going to go to. And I remember on the first day I was supposed to go into my unit, we couldn t because they were in a firefight. They couldn t get helicopters in and out. They weren t going to let them land and take be there. But there was one guy who went out the day I was supposed to go and they brought him and he was killed the first day. CW: He just went there for the first day and he got killed?

27 27 AJO: First day and they had rockets and he got hurt by mortar rocket and he was killed and I thought I don t like this. And when they said We can t get you to your company because it s a hot landing zone where the helicopter was going to drop me off I thought Ho, ho, I want to go home. [laughs] I don t like this. CW: Did you like, before you go there did you mentally prepare yourself? AJO: You try to. CW: How did you mentally prepare yourself? AJO: Boy I don t know. You try to think about all the things I guess you try to thing about the things back home that you want to get back to. And you just say I m going to stay alive, I m going to do what I have to do to stay alive. But when the Vietnamese start shooting rockets at you and ambushes you just hope you re lucky. You hope you re lucky enough to, to make it home. CW: How long did you manage to actually somewhat prepare or brainwash yourself before you actually go to Vietnam? Once you found out about the news? AJO: I know once I got drafted, I knew I was going because my luck was bad. I knew I was going. There was just no two ways about it. CW: But still you managed to run away for a year to AJO: Well, I didn t run away. I just kept out of it because they just kept assigning to different places in the States. And when I went to Vietnam all I could think about is God, I hope I make it. And a lot of people when you re in Vietnam, excuse me, a lot of people will drink, you know, to kind of take the edge off or they would smoke dope. And all I thought

28 28 about was I m not going to do that, I want to get home alive, I m going to do whatever I can do to make it home. CW: Mmm hmm. AJO: You know you don t have any control over ambushes or rockets coming in or whatever, so you try to stay I try to stay as aware as I possibly could for, you now, whenever I could. But at night you could smell some, you know, of the people who are smoking dope or you could smell it coming from the villages that were close to you but uh, I uh, I wouldn t do that. CW: OK, what s your specialty in the U.S. Army? AJO: Me? Mine was just infantry. CW: Oh OK. AJO: I was a foot soldier. Well, my specialty actually was mortars. I was supposed to be a mortar platoon leader but I was infantry. You know, I led a rifle platoon and I had four squads and I had I don t know, probably eight or nine men in a squad and there are many 30 something, 36 uh, guys in my platoon so I uh, try to get them to do everything the captain told me to do and get my platoon to do what they wanted to do. And I remember they had about eight or nine guys, but this is not to say anything bad about the black guys. CW: Mmm hmm. AJO: But they felt some of the white guys were getting preferential treatment. And I kept telling them, that is not the case, not in my platoon. And you know, I sat down with a few of them and I said, OK let s do this, you know, let s put all the blacks in one squad. CW: Mmm hmm.

29 29 AJO: And one day, you know squad one, and I call them squad one, squad two, squad three and soul squad. The soul brothers, they were, they were their own squad and I told them You re not going to do anything that nobody else s is going to do and when you have to do something, I will do it with you. So I didn t say I m a lieutenant, I don t have to do anything. You guys do it. I did everything that they did. CW: So the soul squad is the blacks? How do you spell soul? As in S-O-L-E? AJO: No, S-O-U-L. CW: Oh, S-O-U-L. AJO: You know how that, that soul train and how the blacks have CW: Yeah, yeah. AJO: It s soul brothers, they call one another. So I had them as the Soul squad. CW: OK. AJO: And you know, I don t remember anybody s name from Vietnam but I just remembered that I liked everyone from my platoon and I wanted everybody to do for me what I was going to do for them. So I played no favorites, no preferential treatment, everybody got the same, you know CW: Treatment. AJO: Treatment. I know whenever we were in combat, we were in a somebody is attacking us or we re being attacked or we re in some kind of position where we had to fire our rifles I ve always felt the Company Commander call me up to take care of everything rather than some of the other guys because he knew that I could do what he wanted us to do and uh, I m not patting myself on my back saying I m better than anybody else

30 30 CW: Yeah. AJO: But whenever we did anything, we were called up. You know, whatever squad I was, he would say Lt. Ostrow or whatever my call sign was because you don t want to use lieutenants the name. So they would call us up and we would come up from somewhere and lead the charge. CW: So do you think all the squads you led really respect you? AJO: I think the guys in my platoon, I think, uh, even before I went there I think I have a good rapport. Because I know people, I think I can read them and I like people and I m not the kind of guy who s going to say I m better than you because you re Black or you re Asian, or you re this. I just treat everybody, I think, equally. I like people for the most part, unless they do something bad to me. CW: So you re a people person. AJO: I think so. CW: So which part of Vietnam were you stationed at? AJO: I was up in what is called I Corps. CW: How do you spell it? AJO: I, the letter I Corps, C-O-R-P [correction: I C-O-R-P-S] and all that is the Northern province, there were four Corps one, two, three, four. Saigon was in number four, and then as you went from way up North where I was. That was called the first, I don t even know what CORPS stand for. First area of you know they just divided like New York, New Jersey, Delaware, Maryland and we happened to be up in New York, the highest province. I was near Da Nang.

31 31 CW: How to spell Da Nang? AJO: D-A-N-A-N-G. I was near Da Nang and mostly in a place real close to that called Chulai. CW: Chulai? AJO: C-H-U-L-A-I. CW: So going there because as you said that s a lot of paddy fields, a lot of jungles, and everything and is so different from here. Did your jungle training here actually manage to prepare you? Does it help? AJO: Yeah. Well, it did because you have a lot training everywhere and we weren t really in the jungle. We were more in the mountains and they had you know, thick underbrush but that wasn t jungle like you see in Panama, because we were in the I CORP, it was more mountains there. And as you go further south, you went into the jungles and then further south around Saigon, there were jungles there but they had, you know I remember going to the ocean like the China Beach, they had movie on the TV, China Beach and you know just putting my feet into the ocean, not surfing but just walking you know. That was a little bit of everything like in California, you have the mountains and you have the desert, you have the beach area and the shore, you know in Vietnam they have the same thing. I don t know if they don t snow there, I don t think they do. CW: It might snow, I think. I ve been there before. Up in Hanoi. AJO: Yeah? CW: Up in Hanoi. AJO: Okay, I was never that far. Are you Vietnamese?

32 32 CW: No. But my dad has business in Ho Chi Minh when I was a kid so I go there with my dad when he does his business trip and took a trip to Saigon, Hanoi around that area. AJO: Yeah. One of my friends, his daughter has a little lady kids store in town, in Fig Garden Village, GaGa Chic. Have you heard of that? CW: No. AJO: It s a Fig Garden. They have gotten some clothes from Vietnam and his daughter has gone there and he went on one of the trips with his daughter to Vietnam. I just thought it was a beautiful place from the air but I am not going back. [LAUGH] CW: [LAUGH] So, but was it hard if you have to fight under like the underbrush and stuff and do you think you are fighting the Viet Cong right? AJO: Viet Cong and the NVA, North Vietnamese Army. CW: Yeah. So do you think they have an upper hand up in the mountains? AJO: No, I think it was their country. The thing that they had over us is they knew the area. They, they had tunnels all over the country. CW: Like secret tunnels? AJO: Yeah. They would build these tunnels and like a squirrel or a ground hog, you know and they shot at you and they run down in their tunnels and their tunnels were really intricate. They had certain areas I have never been in one. But I have read number of books, and look at the pictures and they had places where they have maybe a lookout like a little spider hole. What it s called, a guy could look around and can see people but it s hidden and then they have tunnels to go back to where they keep artillery, where they keep the rifles, where they keep their foods, you know some places might have an area for bathroom and whatever. But

33 33 it can go for miles and I think the hardest thing about the war in Vietnam is if you were fighting somebody and there were a lot of tunnels around, they will just disappear and if you bomb them. I heard the analogy, I can t remember who said that, but it was just like trying to go after an ant or a squirrel that goes into the ground, trying to hit them with a hammer and bombing them. They will just ran from one place to another and you don t know where they are once they go into underground you know, and you can t collapse the whole ground but you can drop bombs on them. Parts of the tunnel will be destroyed but they have so many tunnels going around, it s almost like a subway underground. CW: So was it hard? AJO: Well, not really, because I never really have that much of a problem I was only there for three and a half months. And three and a half months most of the people I had firefights with I could see. I, I didn t see any tunnels they weren t for some reason where I was. Or they didn t use them or if they did, I never saw them. They probably did, they probably had them but uh, it s, it s interesting. CW: And uh, I know 1969 was the year when you went right? AJO: Yeah, Dec CW: It s actually one of the worst years some people say it s one of the worst years during the Vietnam War. Like, so, how did you feel the situation was like being there yourself? AJO: It was scary. It was just plain scary. CW: Do you agree it was one of the worst years, probably? AJO: You know in, I think it was Feb 1968, they had the Tet holiday and it was supposed to be one of their holiest days. And on the Tet holiday is when they attacked a lot of the

34 34 Americans in the inner cities. And I think, from some of the readings that I had done, they had planned to draw the American troops into the jungles to leave the cities under, really, the North South Vietnamese, the Republic of Vietnam Army who aren t really CW: Trained. AJO: That trained like the Americans were. And where the Americans went after the Vietnamese, either the VC the Viet Congs or the NVA Army the North Vietnamese Army had left the cities kind of vulnerable. And that s when a lot of the Viet Congs and NVA attacked the inner cities. CW: Mmm hmm. AJO: So, you know, once, they didn t really accomplish what they wanted. They did a good job they killed a lot of people. But uh, the Americans and the, uh, South Vietnamese Army, they did a good job protecting themselves. And I think, you know, that was probably the worst battle of the war. But then, no matter whom you talked to, if somebody was down in Saigon or near Chulai, or Da Nang, or Wei, or Ia Drang Valley, or wherever the different places are, they re all going to say when they were in a firefight, that s the worse place that was the worst battle. They don t care who it is, when you re getting fired at, that s the worst day of your life. CW: How did they draw the U.S. Army out from these villages into the jungle? AJO: Oh it s just their tactic. They have hit and run things. And they would show that they were maybe act like they were building up to attack some place out in the jungle and you know, the United States just kind of follow them. It s wasn t actually that they got them out, but you know, it was like, my knocking on your door and then running away and maybe you d chase me and leave the house empty and somebody would go in and steal something.

35 35 CW: So can you remember your first encounter with the enemy, being under fire the first time? AJO: [Laughs] Uh, yes. I the first time I fired my rifle, we were getting fired at from across the field. And it was kind of like a jungle, it was like a wooded field. CW: Was it like a paddy field? AJO: Well, kinda. But it was more like an open field, like a meadow up in the mountains because that s where we were. And you know, we were getting shot at but we couldn t see anybody so we were uh, just kind of shooting across the field, hoping to hit somebody. And somebody would say Oh, they re over there. So everybody would shoot over there and then they shoot over there. And you would just think Wait a minute, you know, they only fired one or two rounds at us, why are we shooting, you know, thousands at them. They could be gone. And they were. But that was the first time and I just thought Well, this is crazy. But the I got a, an award for this one. For the Bronze Star and on this particular night, you know, and I, I remembered most of it. It was one of these things where we were on a big landing area. A big perimeter. It s probably like a mile in circumference and we are all on bunkers and there s a number of a couple of companies and there were three guys in a bunker. And there were all sandbagged. And uh, you know on top and bottom. If you get mortared, the mortar rounds wouldn t come in, and you know, if they shoot at you, you re protected by the sand bags. And it really was well fortified. And we were in one of them and inside the bunkers was a road where they would resupply all the bunkers. CW: Mmm hmm AJO: And in the middle, they would have all the artillery pieces, the headquarters, all the brass, the leaders, the higher officers would be in the middle. And they would be uh, I don t

36 36 know, their headquarters would be in the middle. And one night, what s called the sapper squad, there was about eight or 10 North Vietnamese Army, came and blew up some artillery pieces. CW: Oh. AJO: [Clears throat] Excuse me. CW: It s OK. AJO: They sneaked in on the other side of the perimeters. But then when they were sneaking out they kind of went by my side and I saw the bunker next to me. I had three guys there and they were shooting and I ran over and this was in the middle of the night like 12, 1 o clock. CW: Oh OK. AJO: Something like that and it was Feb 28th the night of Feb 28th, the night of Feb 28th the morning of March 1st. and then I went to the bunker and uh, I asked my guys Are you guys OK? Is everything OK? and they said Yeah, we re fine and then I saw a dead Vietnamese on the road and I just thought wow. I m looking around and I m going back to mine and as I m going back to my bunker and I saw these two Vietnamese inside the bunker. And I picked up my rifle to shoot them and the rifle just goes click. I never loaded my rifle. CW: Oh shoot. AJO: And you know, that was without a doubt the scariest day of my life. Because when I picked up my rifle to shoot them, they ducked down and then I loaded my rifle obviously. And I moved to the side so when they got up, they were shooting at me where I was. But I had moved a little to my left and I shot both of them and killed them and the guys who were

37 37 with me said they could see their tracer rounds because every so often they have a tracer rounds that glows in the dark. CW: Oh yeah. AJO: They could see them go past me. So they missed me but I killed them. And that was, you know, this s a real short story because there was more to it than that. But it was just that the scariest thing that happened to me. CW: How close was the bullet going past you? AJO: I don t know. I could hear them but I could the North Vietnamese soldiers were 10 feet away the most. CW: So you could hear the bullet whizzing past you. AJO: Yeah. And the other guys were I had a grenade thrown at me that didn t go off. CW: You were lucky. AJO: Yeah. [Coughs] Excuse me. CW: It s alright. AJO: And then, you know, I got hit with a little piece scrap, you know, of a grenade that went off. But, I guess one of the guys who threw it at me was killed by one of my other men. CW: Oh, it was like a friendly fire kind of thing? AJO: No, no, no, no they were still inside the perimeters. And they have been the North Vietnamese have been doing these for a while. They were going from like what, what s it called landing zone. So I think we were on Landing Zone Ross. There was another one Eagle.