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1 The Tuning of the alto guitar Posted by Leopold /11/09 19:22 So the alto guitars first six strings are tuned a minor third higher than a normal guitar? If this is so, does that not make reading music for it difficult as you would have to learn a completely new and different tuning so it must take a while to learn. Posted by tenvec /11/10 13:13 No, it does not make the reading of music for the alto difficult. As I remarked, the alto is used as a transposing instrument, i.e., the frets are found from the staff notes as for a standard guitar in E. This is possible because the string intervals of a standard guitar and an alto are identical, save for an occasional dropping of the third string by a semi-tone. The same transposing usage is used for all members of the guitar family, e.g., a requinto in A and a baritone in B, are played from a score that looks like a standard guitar score, the actual pitch of the strings producing the desired key. With regard to the playing of baroque lute music, which was always written in french tablature, if you have an instrument that is tuned like a lute, you can play directly from the tablature score. At the present time, there are many facsimile and performance editions of this music available in tablature. It takes time to learn to play from tablature, but it is doable. ALL lutenists play from tablature. However, most guitarists prefer to play from a standard notational score. Thus, if a transcription of the piece you wish to play is available, you can play directly onto an alto as if it were a guitar, but it will be a minor third too high. To get the correct key, transpose the key of the piece down a minor third, i.e., write out the piece a minor third lower. Playing from this lower keyed score on an alto will give the original key. Some examples of transposing keys for alto are as follows: Original Alto Dm Bm F D Gm Em Bb G Eb C G E Am F#m These are the most popular keys used in baroque lute music. There are available some good quality transcriptions from tablature. Thus, the Weiss London manuscript has been transcribed by Ruggiero Chiesa and is published by Zerboni. These are all in original key, so, to use a guitar score for alto, write them out a minor third lower. If you go to Daniel Forget's site for baroque lute, you will find many works in PDF format by baroque composers for lute in both tablature and notation. Again, the notation is that of the original score. Within the alto site, go to the members list and find "Leyenda", there is a link to his site which gives a fair number of baroque pieces arranged for alto. Also, all the downloads on the alto group's site are arranged for alto. On the whole, guitarists who are serious about playing baroque lute music accurately, transcribe from the original tablature score. Hope this helps? Posted by tenvec /11/10 13:15 For some reason, the separation of "original" and "alto" lists has been lost in submission, but I think the meaning is clear. Posted by /11/10 19:31 With a regular 6-string, if you put a capo on the 3rd fret you don't suddenly have to learn a new system of reading music. You simply read it the way you always have, but it will sound a minor third higher. This is the same with the alto-guitar. You read music just as you have in the past, but the sound will be a minor third higher.

2 Often transcriptions will be made taking this into consideration. If you want to end up with a piece sounding in G minor, you will have the music be in E minor. This illustrates one of the great things about the alto-guitar. Being able to play a piece in E minor is much better. You play lower on the neck and the chords/fingerings fall under your fingers much better. Posted by Leopold /11/10 19:47 Thankyou both. I understand now that it is not a matter of learning a new tuning, but rather a matter of transposing. Now, if I d not want to spend 3 hours transposing a Weiss sonata, am I out of luck? As tenvec said, there are some alto arrangments but for the most part, where will I get my music from? My teacher thinks I should master the six string guitar before taking up a more strings. This could take a couple years, and I cant wait to learn the alto guitar so that I can play Bach and Weiss. Should I buy one now or wait do you think? :) Posted by /11/10 20:21 Leopold wrote: Thankyou both. I understand now that it is not a matter of learning a new tuning, but rather a matter of transposing. Now, if I d not want to spend 3 hours transposing a Weiss sonata, am I out of luck? As tenvec said, there are some alto arrangments but for the most part, where will I get my music from? My teacher thinks I should master the six string guitar before taking up a more strings. This could take a couple years, and I cant wait to learn the alto guitar so that I can play Bach and Weiss. Should I buy one now or wait do you think? :) We're very lucky that this guy has made a ton of arrangements for alto guitar, so you don't have to worry about where to find pieces transposed down a third. Check out the Goran Sollscher section and the Weiss Section (see the left side of the home page at the bottom to find links to these sections). Posted by Leopold /11/10 21:20 Thankyou. :) Posted by Leopold /11/10 21:23 Couldnt you just tune the guitar a minor third lower instead of transposing? This way you would not have to transpose the piece that you want to learn. Also, who is Leyenda? Posted by Toffe /11/10 21:33

3 Well, actually, the lute was tuned a minor third higher than the guitar. So you'll end up much closer to the original. If you drop the first string a whole note and the third string a half note, you'll be well on your way to a baroque lute tuning. I played alot of Kellner music like that, right off the tabulature. Also, remember that when you transcribe music for alto guitar you usually do it from lute tabulature, not contamporary western notation. So when you trancribe it you might as well transpose it while you're at it. In other words... If you would tune the guitar a third lower you would end up having to play the music with a far more difficult fingering than the original. Often you'll end up with music that just can't be played as it was intended. When I studied for Peder Riis I always transcribed the music myself. Just to make sure that I understood how the composer played the music. Even when I played music from the alto guitar book I had the tabulature to see what strings the composer used etc. It tells you alot about how the music sounded originally. Posted by /11/10 21:40 Leopold wrote: Couldnt you just tune the guitar a minor third lower instead of transposing? This way you would not have to transpose the piece that you want to learn. Also, who is Leyenda? Good question. If you merely tuned the guitar a minor third lower, you would still play the pieces on the on the same place of the guitar's fingerboard. One of the huge advantages of the alto guitar with pieces written a minor third lower is that they fall into much better fingerings. Before I used the example of playing a piece in E minor vs. G minor. E minor is a great key on the guitar, and you would be playing lower on the guitar's neck. Where the highest note in a piece was previously D on the 10th fret, now is B on the 7th fret. Plus, even if it did make sense to string the guitar a minor third lower (which is doesn't), finding the right strings to do this would not be easy. Speaking of finding different strings, an alternative to buying an alto-guitar is to put on some specialty strings to make the guitar go up a minor third. I have discussed this here in a thread. I bought a set from Editions Orphee under the specialty strings section called, "terz strings." These are meant to put on a standard 650mm 6-string guitar to be able to tune up to G (up a minor third). Then you can just use D'Addario singles for the other basses. Also, I have found that the 1st string in that set is a bit thin, and I now use a Savarez KF47 for the 1st string. I have both an alto-guitar and a 10-string, both tuned up a minor third to G. Posted by Leopold /11/11 01:09 Now that Im obsessed with the alto guitar and its sonority and beauty, how should I go about purchasing one? Do I buy online without even getting a chance to play it first? I live in America so will that make it harder to buy an alto guitar? I hear Bolin guitars are some of the best, is this true? :) Posted by /11/11 01:21

4 Leopold wrote: Now that Im obsessed with the alto guitar and its sonority and beauty, how should I go about purchasing one? Do I buy online without even getting a chance to play it first? I live in America so will that make it harder to buy an alto guitar? I hear Bolin guitars are some of the best, is this true? :) Bolin invented the alto guitar, and probably his are the best. I live in the US too, and I bought an Asturias alto guitar (Japanese company) through Guitar Salon International. The guy I dealt with was David Collett. It was $5000 plus tax... not cheap. I'm not sure how the current exchange rate is between the Yen and US dollar now. That makes a difference. I think the Asturias is a very decent guitar. Their workmanship is consistent and highly regarded. You might also check out the luthier listed on this site from Sweden. It might not be too bad to buy one from him. Posted by Leopold /11/11 01:35 Check this out. His alto guitars ar 3,900 euros, about 4,974 dollars. What do you think? What are the risks of buying online? Posted by Toffe /11/11 10:35 Well.. the risk when dealing with a serious luthier is very small. Roger is by the way a member here. The tricky part might be the shipping. But if you get a good insurance that shouldn't be that big of a problem. Right now is a great time to order from Sweden to the US, since the Swedish currency is very weak to the USD. You'll save about 1000 dollars compared to if you would have bought one a few months ago. Rogers guitar are, as far as I know, very fine instruments. Some of the best guitars I have tried have been by Bolin, but my favourite two guitars have been made by one of his students. So there is a good chance of getting a new alto guitar that is better than any of Bolins. Look around in the memberlist of the site, there are several luthiers here. Just select "Luthiers" in the drop down menu of the memberlist. Posted by tenvec /11/11 11:44 Leopold. Sorry, I have no idea who "Leyenda" is, but do visit his or her website(found via our members' list), it has a lot of quality music. I have checked a number of the transcriptions and they are accurate. You can have a 65 scale 11s guitar made tuned in the common baroque tuning of Dm, and there is the "Dresden" by Michael Thames that is tuned as a 13c baroque lute. However, tuning an alto thus on a permanent basis looses its wonderful flexibility. I do recall very clearly that although I liked lute music very much, I resisted learning tablature for a very long time. Having finally come to grips with it, I think it was one of the best musical decisions of my life. There is a gold mine of very fine music buried under tablature, most it unknown to guitarists. Equipped with an alto, a great deal of this repertoire

5 becomes accessible. The dollar/krone exchange, as Toffe has pointed out, makes obtaining a Swedish instrument much more affordable at the present time. Posted by tenvec /11/11 12:59 Leopold, You raised a question about learning an alto, now, while your teacher has recommended becoming (reasonably) proficient on a 6s, first. I gather from this that you are probably not a music student...? If you are a music student studying guitar at a conservatory, almost certainly, the guitar teachers there will have no knowledge of multi-string guitars, even 7, 8, 10s instruments, still less the alto. Learning a serious multi-string guitar, say, a 10/11s, after learning to play a 6s, involves overcoming two difficulties, 1) visual disorientation resulting from the increase in the number of strings, your visual cues will be undermined, and, 2) retraining your thumb to find the extra bass notes.!),if you cease playing your 6s guitar, takes about two to three weeks to overcome, 2), even with ceasing to play your 6s, typically takes several months. In summary, switching to a 10/11s(or more) is a non-trivial task. I believe almost all multi-string guitarists have started on a six, so, the switch can be done. If you are a complete beginner on guitar, your 6s teacher will have a lot of valuable information to impart. Simply take your 6s to lessons and practice on your alto at home what you have been taught. There is a lot of renaissance lute music transcribed for guitar. As it happens, many transcriptions of renaissance lute music are "positional" transcriptions, i.e., a minor third lower than actual pitch. so, playing them on an alto takes them back to their original key. If you choose those that have a "bass D tuning", i.e., have the sixth string tuned down a tone(from E to D), on your alto play the low "D" on the 7th string, rather than a dropped 6th. Later renaissance lute music was written for more than a 6/7c instrument, there is a lot of music for 7/8/9/10c instruments, though there are very few commercial transcriptions of this music, and not many indicate the correct pitch of the bass notes. However, if you learn tablature, there are many facsimile and performance editions available, not only commercially, but there are a number of sites on the internet where lutenists have mounted PDF's of a truly enormous amount of music, all free! Overall, I recommend learning the two instruments together, if there are no multi-string guitar teachers locally. This way, you will not have the re-learning problems that most of us have had to deal with. Posted by /11/11 16:47 I have been thinking about what your teacher told you, that you should stick with the 6-string to get a solid foundation (I'm paraphrasing, of course). He may be right. For me, I got a 10-string and then an alto guitar because of the same fascination for the instruments just as you're expressing. Before getting my multi-strings I had images of the many pieces I'd master on the instruments. When you first get the new guitar, you'll be overwhelmed by all the available music and trying to decide what to learn first. Now that some time has passed for me, and I've gotten past that intitial "I must learn it all" phase, I now only play two pieces on each of my multi-strings. My main focus is still the 6-string and 7-string. Realize that time is limited. If you start playing the alto guitar, that means that you will be playing the 6-string less. You need to ask yourself if you'd rather focus on one instrument and get really solid, or to dilute your focus. Posted by Leopold /11/11 19:45 Firstly, I am a music student in college. My teacher plays the classical guitar and the renaissance lute. I do not think for me at least that it will be hard to learn the extra strings, considering that I also play the violin which is a complete different

6 tuning. I found a weiss ciacona which I want to play on the Alto and it is not hard to learn. I just want to make sure that I buy a quality instrument at a fair price. Posted by Toffe /11/11 19:56 If you're already playing on a somewhat advanced level you will really get a great kick out of playing alto. The hardest part is to learn to move the thumb around those 5 extra basses, but just practice, practice. Also you're technique for 6-string will evolve as well since you will really have to work on the precision in your right hand. I played 6-string and alto together the last 2 years of my music education. My last year I practiced about 5 hours a day and I always started with an hour technique workout on 6-sting. No use in practicing that stuff on alto since everything, except thumb, is easier there. Then I switched between the instruments by the hour. That will also help you to learn to switch between the instruments in concert. Keep looking for an instrument. If you find the music you want to play on alto, you'll be bitten by the bug the moment you lay your hands on the instrument. I remember when my alto was just new... I visited my parents and I couldn't play when they went to sleep. But I just HAD to play so I sat on a park bench, in the middle of the night, practicing Jaqcues Bittner. The alto guitar is just such a wonderful instrument to get to know. Get one! Posted by Leopold /11/12 03:37 My teacher said today that it does not make sense that the alto guitar be tuned differently than a baroque lute. He says that since it is tuned like a renaissance lute, that it makes srring crossing and stretching more difficult when playing baroque music on the alto guitar. Posted by Toffe /11/12 08:46 Well, that's actually not true. Since it is not a lute, but a guitar it would make less sense to tune it to baroque lute tuning, since you then would only be able to play baroque lute music. Now you can play any music. Also, the baroque lute music is not that much harder to play with normal tuning. And you may always drop the tuning on the first and 3rd string and you'r halfway there. If you play Bach, for example, it doesn't matter. Bach didn't play the lute and he did not write the music in tabulature. Some of it is actually easier on standard tuning. The alto is acctually not tuned like a renaissance lute. It is tuned like a normal guitar a minor third up. But if you move the terse by lowering the third string half a note, you'll have the renaissance lute (and the viola da gamba - alot of good music for the alto guitar there as well). So, it makes just as much sence to have the alto in normal tuning as it does to have a standard 6-string tuned that way. As long as you spend some good time trancribing, not only the notes but also the music from the old tabulature, you'll come very close to the original.

7 Posted by tenvec /11/12 13:01 Hello Leopold, I am pleased to learn that you are a music student, as this means our responses can be more professional. Firstly, I agree with Toffe completely over the tuning of the alto. If your teacher had experience of playing baroque lute pieces on the alto he would know that the compromises over chords, slurs and ornaments are suprisingly few, fewer on the whole, than playing a 10s guitar in E. While it is true that having an instrument tuned in Dm tuning is the ideal for playing baroque lute music, and one can have a guitar made to do this, the alto in its original tuning is a VERY versatile instrument. As I said in an earlier response, you can tune the alto as an 11c baroque lute, either exactly, or very closely as Toffe has indicated. There IS a problem over playing the slurs and ornaments on such a short scale instrument as an alto, compared to performing them on a baroque lute with its long scale and low tension strings. Noticeably more vertical finger force is required to make them work on an alto compared to a baroque lute, a problem shared to an extent with a standard 65 scale guitar with its typically high tension strings, i.e., guitarists have to work much harder at these effects than a lutenist. Whatever we and your teacher say as to the merits of playing baroque on an alto, "proof of pudding is in the eating", and I would recommend watching Goran Sollscher on You Tube playing Weiss, Bach, etc.. Baroque can be done, and done very well indeed on an alto. I was very interested to learn that your teacher plays the renaissance lute, is this a 6c or an 8c instrument? Perchance, a 10c? It has been my saddened experience that most guitar teachers, including those at a conservatory, know very little about the lute in any form, renaissance, transitional, baroque, or archlute, so, you are indeed fortunate., if you read this, with your considerable knowledge of GS on You tube, perhaps you would be so very kind as to provide some links for Leopold? Posted by Toffe /11/12 13:39 Here's a thread in the forum with 7 clips of Göran Söllscher. By way, about tuning... I did a masterclass för Göran Söllscher a few years back. I played a fantasia by David Kellner. For that piece I use a semibaroque tuning (lowering string 1 and 3). It work great for it. When Göran looked at the sheet, he played it prima vista, from my transcription, in concert tempo and standard tuning. Then he did it again with a different fingering. So the tuning isn't the big issue... the guitarist is ;) But then again, Göran is from space. Posted by tenvec /11/12 14:18 Toffe, Many thanks for these inspiring pieces! Posted by /11/12 17:02 I think the great thing about the alto guitar is having so many open basses. I think the great thing about a 6-string is not having so many open basses.

8 Posted by Leopold /11/12 17:55 Thankyou for the videos, I have seen them all before but they are still great to watch. My teacher plays a theorbo, an 8c reaissance lute, and the medevial lute as well. I will be playing the renaissance fiddle with his early music ensemble soon. The fugue (fantasy) is just amazing played by Goran. My teacher discouraged me from buying an alto because he says that I can buy 2 good lutes for the price of one good alto. But I still want the alto guitar. Posted by tenvec /11/12 18:37, in a way, summarises the position over guitars. It all depends what you want to play. If you like 6s repertoire, or at least parts, say, from 19th century via the Segovia to the contemporary, then a six string is just fine. If you like as well, perhaps even prefer, older music, then you definitely need many more strings than six and different tunings are necessary. Again, we are all different, when it comes to what type of instrument we prefer to play. Some continue playing a 6s, while playing a multi-string, others, I am one, cease playing them altogether. I have not played a standard guitar for about seven years. Altos are not cheap, but note the US dollar/krone exchange at the moment. This offsets the justified comment of your teacher. As noted previously, there are excellent makers who are members of this group, so, little risk in buying "untried". I would hesitate to speak against obtaining a lute, but there is the problem of tuning double courses through pegs which besets these beautiful instruments. A final comment, do not underestimate the problem of learning to play the additional basses.... Posted by ninjasan /11/12 20:09 I think the great thing about the alto guitar is having so many open basses. I think the great thing about a 6-string is not having so many open basses. Hi, you made me laugh a lot :) but you're definitely right! Leopold, if your teacher plays several different lutes, you'll be able to try his lute, that will make your mind about it. Then, maybe, you'll have to consider to choose between lute and nails, only a few lutenist play with nails, almost others do not. Then you will know if you do want to cut your nails or not (ie: if you still want to play a lot of guitar or not) This could be one thing to consider, between Altoguitar and Lute. Christophe Posted by Leopold /11/12 20:37

9 Well, I would still want to keep my nails, so that is not an issue. I prefer earlier music such as 19th century and beyond...renaissance, baroque, ect. I will get a chance to play his renaissance lute this weekend so will be able to see what the fuss is about with the nails and the lute. Posted by tenvec /11/13 13:51 Leopold, The first thing that will happen when you pick up a traditional lute is the discovery of just how light it is compared to a typical 6s. Your next, will be that the strings are noticeably less tense than those of a guitar, even with two courses. To play a traditional renaissance lute with nails requires a much lighter touch than you will have developed to play a guitar. Also, you will find that to accommodate the two strings for each course, your right hand(assuming you are right handed) will naturally turn more parallel to the strings and you will tend to use more flesh than you would do in playing a guitar. These differences make for difficulties in switching between the two instruments in formal performance. For this reason, Julian Bream had his renaissance lute made nearer to guitar standard to withstand the much higher tension of the strings he used for G-tuning. He was criticised by certain members of the lute community for this lack of "authenticity", though none of these critics, or indeed members the lute community of the time, the '60's, possessed either his musicality or his outstanding technique. With this instrument, he was able to use guitar technique for both instruments. Note that he used modern concert modern pitch, A=440, as you can tell from his early lute recordings, rather than A =415, as most solo lutenists now use to simulate typical renaissance pitch. This lower pitch can be well accommodated by tuning a lute/guitar to modern F#, rather than G. This is the tuning I use for my 10s guitars to simulate a 10c renaissance lute. Most lutes at the present time are made to be close copies of traditional instruments. However, some new technology has been applied to the lute, Google, "Liuto Forte" for a very interesting account of some new developments. Needless to say, traditionally disposed members of the lute community are opposed.... These "lutes" can be single strung and can be played with nails. They are produced in renaissance, baroque, and archlute form, and even with guitar tuning in E. I suspect, that your teacher would like you to become a guitarist/lutenist like himself, so, you have a problem. All the members of this community can say is that the alto guitar can give completely accurate accounts of renaissance lute music, including that for 10c lute and 11c attiorbato, and a very good account of much baroque music. We would all like to hear how you get on. All the best, James P.S. On re-reading my post, I should add that one guitarist/lutenist of the '60's, other than Bream, does deserve mention, Konrad Ragossnig. Posted by Leopold /11/14 19:49 I would really like to become a lutenist but my nails seem to be a problem. My teacher says that you cannot achieve an authentic lute sound by using the nails.:dry: So this is why I became so attracted to the alto guitar. Even though you can alter the lute to sound more like a guitar like Bream did, I could not do this as it makes me feel like Im cheating and it would not sound the same as well. By the way, I have a juinior recital coming up next semester, and I would like to play some Weiss on my six string, any suggestions? :) Posted by tenvec /11/17 13:03 I do not believe anyone really knows what an "authentic" lute sound really is..., as none of us were alive three to four hundred years ago. The fact that the few instruction books that have come down to us advise against the use of nails, makes it clear that some players WERE using nails. Also, a careful study of lutenists's hands in portraits over many decades, and the right hand fingering markings in manuscripts, makes it clear that right hand position changed from

10 "thumb-under'(which favours flesh-tip), to "thumb-out", where the use of nails is feasible. Where lutenists do use nails effectively, they do achieve a brilliance of attack that is delightful. If you wish to use nails on a lute, my suggestion is that you adopt the Lagoya right hand technique, and experiment. However, it is clear that your teacher is of the "authentic" school, and my remarks, and suggestions from others on this forum, run counter to his beliefs/wishes. Playing lute music on an alto is akin to playing Scarlatti on a modern concert grand, a mode of performance that is NOT approved of by the "authentic" school of thought, though there has been some easing of opposition in recent years. In my view, it is a matter of personal choice as to whether one prefers Bach, Handel and Scarlatti on harpsichord or piano, but in the early music world such a view would usually be taken heretical. As to a piece by Weiss on a 6s, not too easy, as the lack of appropriate basses means that you are losing sonority. If you have Noad's "The Baroque Guitar", there is a Passacaglia by Weiss with bass D tuning that works quite well on a 6s. Also, you could look through Daniel Forget's "Le Luth Baroque", concentrating on the standard notation PDF's. Posted by Leopold /11/19 06:08 At the moment I am learning Weiss' Passacaglia in D. Now my teacher says that I will have to wait until the semester is over until he lets me borrow his lute, as he does not want me to become distracted from the instrument in case I happen take a liking in it.:ohmy: Anyway, ever since I have taken interest in the lute and the alto, playing guitar for me, has been like playing a different instrument, its hard to explain. As Weiss said, "the lute is the perfect instrument, other than the keyboard", I wonder if Weiss would still hold his opinion, but for the guitar, the classical guitar. Posted by tenvec /11/19 14:49 I think you may have reached a point where a 6s is no longer quite the magical instrument you once thought it was. A 6s works perfectly well for some repertoire, but for others, it really is inadequate. As to playing both lute and guitar, in an interview with Goran Sollscher in the UK magazine, "Classical Guitar", he implied that he plays lute as well as alto and his 6s Ramirez.