D.Q CK BOG GS LEGENDARY BANJO PLAYER AND SlNGER

FOLKWAYS FOLKWAYS RECORDS FH 5458 () A '" G'> G'> <n EXCERPTS FROM INTERVIEWS FH 5458 WITH D.Q CK BOG GS LEGENDARY BANJO PLAYER AND SlNGER BOGGS BRIEF RECOUNT OF HIS LIFE: BRUNSWICK AUDITION '.\, J tj I: ON FIRST LEARNING TO PLAY AND "LIVING FOR THE LORD" AS MUCH SO AS I KNOW HOW., r' ' " IN TAKING UP LEARNING TO PLAY A BANJO... NEGRO MUSICIANS, HOMER CRAWFORD, HIS OWN STYLE, DANCING PLAYING "STRAIGHT"; PLAYS TURKEY IN THE STRAW: HIS BAND " "D" TUNING AND HOMER CRAWFORD: GUITAR PLAYING fl PRACTICING AND TIMING FOR RECORD PLAYING FOR A LIVING; TRIP TO NEW YORK MORE ABOUT LEARNING TO PLAY, HOMER CRAWFORD COMMENTS WHILE LOOKING OVER SONG TE XTS HE HAS WRITTEN OR COLLECTED MORE ON LEARNING TO PLAY BANJO, AND FIRST "PLAYING OUT" ABOUT DOWN SOUTH BLUES AND PLAYING BLUES ON THE BANJO: "I NEVER THOUGHT ABOUT PLAYING COMMERCIALLY " BRUNSWICK AUDITION, PLAYING FOR A LIVING. "-r -, ~" COAL CREEK MARCH AT LAND SALE; LEFT COAL LOADING FOR MUSIC WHY HE LEFT VmGINIA IN 1928 ABOUT THE NAME "DOCK" HISTORY OF THE COAL CREEK MARCH STORY ABOUT SINGING ROW AN COUNTY CREW "'T1 ra ~ DESCRIPTIVE NOTES INSIDE POCKET l> -< <n ;;0 m () ;;0 <n FOLK WAYS RECORDS I FH 5458 AND EDITED BY MIKE SEEGER

FOLKWAYS RECORDS Album N. FH 5458 by Flkways Recrds & Service Crp., 165 W. 46th st. NYC USA EXCERPTS FROM INTERVIEWS WITH DOCK BOGGS Recrded and Edited by Mike Seeger INTRODUCTION This recrd is a cmpanin t Dck Bggs' first Flkways recrd (FA 2351) and cntains what is an attempt at having an articulate traditinal musician dcument sme f his life and feelings in his wn wrds. The emphasis here is bviusly n his musical life, but aside frm that the editr tended t edit his editing in an attempt t present as true a picture as pssible. If there is an editrial pint t be made it is primarily that an utstanding traditinal musical stylist wh played infrmally in his early years was recrded cmmercially, whereupn it became a prfessin fr a shrt while and was ccasinally given a mnetary value. But his style was clearly frmed cnsiderably befre he had gtten the chance t recrd. An attempt was made t illustrate this visually in the ntes with FA 2351: 1) A handwritten invitatin t a schlhuse cntest befre he recrded; 2) the newspaper clipping nting that he was ging t recrd; 3) and a cuple f psters made after he had decided t fllw up cmmercially n his recrds by playing "shws". This was a path fllwed by a majrity f traditinal muntain musicians wh recrded cmmercially during the 1922-1932 era, althugh few had such a radically different style. Als imprtant f curse are the influences in his music - his brther, Hmer Crawfrd, the negr stringband, Lee Hunsucker, and the blues in general. The mre difficult expsitin n the esthetic which shaped these influences int such an unparalelled style is the unfrtunate shrtcming f this recrd since Dck Bggs is ften quite articulate n the subject. Of interest als are his stries (side B #5, fr example) relating the very rugh life that he and apparently many thers led in the suthwestern Virginia and eastern Kentucky area in the twenties and thirties. It is hpefully made clear here that he is a deeply religius man and nw lives a very different life than that related in sme f the stries f his early days. * * * * * * Cver drawing and design by Jnathan Shahn * * * * * * The tapes frm which these segments are excerpted were initially recrded fr reference in writing ntes fr Dck Bggs' first album. The ntes were t have been excerpts f a literal transcriptin frm the tape, but in starting t transcribe the tapes with me, my wife Marj suggested that they lst a great deal f the riginal expressin n paper and perhaps shuld be n a recrd. Mter sme thught and a phne call t Mses Asch (wh welcmed the idea and set it numerically next t Aunt Mlly Jacksn in his catalgue) the sevetal days f editing began. The editing f this recrd was dne in cnsultatin with Dck Bggs althugh he has nly heard ne cmplete side as f its release. Hwever] he did nt wish t change It in any Significant way. Ana as with all albums f muntain musicians assembled by this editr, these tw recrds (and bviusly especially his first recrd f which he has sld 65 cpies in the first six weeks) are edited realizing that they are nt nly fr the Urban flk music academician and enthusiast but als fr the singer and his friends. This is nt apparently as true f the ntes r at least this "sentence". Since Dck Bggs' "re-discvery" he has had an article abut him in bth the Nrtn and Bristl papers. And a man frm Nrtn wh had begun learning frm Pete Seeger's banj manual came t him t take lessns. He has als written excellent letters t Bradside (NY March, 1964) and Sing Out! (June-July, 1964) which make this recrd unnecessary. It is a mutual discvery. * * * * * * Except fr band 8, side A (which shuld fllw band 2, side B) all segments are in sequence as recrded. Several subjects are presented twice t shw variatin and expansin n certain pints. Bands 1-7 n side A were recrded n June 12, 1963 when we first met Dck Bggs. Bands 8 and 9 n side A and 1-5 n side B were recrded n July 1, 1963. Band 6 n side B was recrded September 24, 1963 and band 7 at a cncert fr the Philadelphia Flk Sng SCiety, December 15, 1963. This last item althugh nt an interview, was thught t be a gd carry-ver f his stry-telling nt the stage. On the June recrdings the Tandberg micrphne was ut f rder which resulted in a high hum level and static. This, added t the 3-3/4 ips speed, and sund f cars, lcmtives, and children playing near Dck's hme where this was recrded rate the recrding high in atmsphere but very lw in quality. SIDE 1 INTERVIEW WITH DOCK BOGGS 1. BRIEF ACCOUNT OF HIS LIFE: BRUNSWICK AUDITION "I was brn February the seventh, 18 and 98, dwn here at West Nrtn; brn in this cunty, the same cunty I'm living in. I retired ut f Kentucky. I wrked in the cal mines, cmmenced cal mining when I was just a by. Never gt t g t schl t much. " DID YOUR PARENTS WORK IN THE MINES? "My father was a carpenter and a blacksmith, but I had brthers that wrked in the mines, much lder. I was the yungest child ut f a family f ten. There's 5 bys and 5 girls. My ldest brther had a by just. lacked 5 days f being as ld as me. I started wrking in the mines when I was 12 years ld, but I went t schl a little bit after that. I gt a seventh grade educatin. I was wrking in the cal mines at Pardee, Virginia, fr Blackwd Cal and Cke Cmpany in 19 and 27 when tw men frm New Yrk and ne frm Ashland, Kentucky -- a Carter, and I frget the ther tw men's names frm New Yrk -- (came) t pick up muntain talent thrugh Tennessee, West Virginia, and Kentucky and Virginia, and they came t Nrtn Virginia. I brrwed an ld banj -- I happened t be in twn that day -- Pardee's abut 6 r 8 miles frm Nrtn. I brrwed a banj frm a fellw, McClure, run a music stre, a little cheap banj. I started t play tw pieces fr them, they was in a big hurry, they was ver at the Nrtn htel trying ut this muntain talent. They tried ut abut 50 r 75 musicians. They was standing arund there up in the ballrm and I wndered why they hadn't signed them up fr t make

phngraph recrds, because I std arund and pitched them high as a dllar, dllar and a half at a time -- I mean nickels, dimes, and quarters -- t hear them play. They wasn't di~g nthing but playing a~d I was wrking n a cal machine. I tk that ld banj up there and they asked me did I play it, and I tld them I played ne kind f like it a little bit. They tld me t g and give them a piece. I played abut a verse f "The Cuntry Blues" -- I called it "Cuntry Blues," it was really "Hustling Gamblers. " WHERE DID YOU LEARN THAT SONG? "I learned that frm a man frm Tennessee, where I dn't knw. Named Crawfrd, Hmer Crawfrd, and he played the ld way -- banjo -- in the ld way f playing. S I just played a little f that and I nticed they all marked it "gd" n their papers; and they asked me t play anther ne and I started ut t play the " Dwn Suth Blues" a sng that I'd learned. I heard sme f it n a phngraph recrd back years bef.re.this. It wa~ played n a pian, but I cmmenced playmg I.t.n the banjo and sang it and put an extra verse r tw m It that I made myself. S I just played abut tw verses and I ntic.ed they marked " gd" n that, and they came arund WIth papers wanting t sign me up t g t make phngraph recrds, and three weeks frm that time I was n my way t New Yrk t make phngraph recrds. And nne f these here gd musicians standing arund there -- didn't sign nary a banj player but me n the runds they cme that time. They Signed abut three guitar players, and there was tw fiddlers. " DO YOU REMEMBER ANY OF THE OTHERS? "They signed up Jhn Dykes, Hub Mahaffey, and Miss Vermillin -- I can't think f her first name -- frm Kingsprt, Tennessee; and Hub Mahaffey he secnded n the guitar fr me n sme f the pieces that I played and put n phngraph recrds. S we went t New Yrk and I made fur recrds, and they ffered fr me t make tw r three mre while I was there, but I thught n the cntract I was under I'd just make them fur -- eight sngs. S, I gt tw cntracts fr t make phngraph recrds fr The Brunswick, Balke and Callender - Cmpany f New Yrk. And a lt f peple thught I quit n them just because I didn't have the pprtunity t make mre phngraph recrds, but I had a cntract-tw cntracts -- ne t make 12 sngs with me and the guitar player -- anyne I'd want t get -- and then I culd get a band f musicians if I wanted t and make 12 mre -- 24 sngs. And I had a little dmestic truble and I decided I'd quit and went back in the cal mines and retired ut f the cal mines, and I'm a retired cal miner nw. 65 years ld, and I didnyt think I ever wuld play anymre. And my banj, I let a fellw take it t keep. I let him hld it fr security fr a little mney I gt ff f him, and I went back and gave him back that mney 25 years afterwards and picked up the banj. He was a single man at the time I let him have the banj, and he had a family and ne girl married at the time that I went back t take my banj. He was frm -- a Kinser by, at Hayman, Kentucky. His wife, she's a schlteacher, she taught schl ver there. Adams girl he married, Reba Adams. S I went back t Kentucky and went t wrk in the cal mines and I was wrking fr the Elk Hrn Cal Crpratin at Jackhrn, Kentucky, and I retired frm there back when I was 60 years ld. I'm 65 nw and I'm drawing my welfare pensin frm the United Mine Wrkers and als my Scial Security nw. " 2. ON FIRST LEARNING TO PLAY AND LIVING FOR THE LORD DID YOUR PARENTS PLAY MUSIC AT ALL? "I had my ldest brther, he fiddled a little bit and he had an ld banj, he'd play it sme. That was the nly ne.t play any music t amunt t anything. I gt me a banjo after I was married. I married when I was yung, 20 years ld. Cmmenced playing, and I played fr parties, bean stringings, and first ne thing and anther where they'd have a little party in the cuntry -- used t -- and I was just playing fr the fun f it. I played a cuple f these -2- pieces fr the peple frm New Yrk and they gave me an pprtunity t make sme phngraph recrds, and I culd have made sme mre but I decided t quit. I gt dust n my lungs, and I've nt gt t gd a breath. I dn't pretend t play much. In fact, I belng t the. church nw and I'm living a different life t what I lived whenever I was yunger. I'm living fr the Lrd as much s as I knw hw. " 3. IN TAKING UP LEARNING TO PLAY A BANJO, NEGRO MUSICIANS, HOMER CRAWFORD, DANCING "In taking up learning t playa banj, whenever I was learning hw t play, why there wasn't very many peple that played a banjo arund thrugh the cuntry that I ever heard. I heard ne clred fellw, Negr, played in a band with a bunch f ther clred fellws. They had abut 4 instruments. " CAN YOU REMEMBER WHAT INSTRUMENTS? "They had a fiddle guitar and a mandlin and a banj. " WAS THAT AROUND HERE? " In Drchester, Virginia. I heard them playing fr a clred dance ne night and I was just a by and I listened t that fellw pick the banj. They was playing "Turkey In The Straw" and I " watched him make the chrds n "Turkey In The Straw, and I decided I'm ging t get me a banj an~ I'm ging t learn hw t play. S I just taken up playmg and taken up my wn methd and my wn way f playing. I dnyt play the way the fellws nwadays d at all, and I never seen anther ne play just exactly like me, but I learned ne by hw t play, a fellw Maggard, Odus Maggard, and he's made several phn<?graph recrds but he changed playing t pretty near like sm~ f thes~ ther fellws, these new players that are playmg nw. DO YOU REMEMBER ANY OF THE NAMES IN THAT BAND YOU MENTIONED? "I can't remember, I didn't knw any f them clred fellws' n~mes at all. I was just with sme white men and I was Just a by, and I sneaked up t the dr where I culd hear that music. I " gt t hear them play three r fur pieces. while.t hey was dancing and ging n in there and havmg a big time. WELL ASIDE FROM THAT, WHO ELSE DID YOU EVER HEAR PLAY THE 5-STRING BANJO? "Well, I heard anther clred fellw play ne a little bit, name was Jim White, he's a blue-eyed clred fellw, and then I heard... " WHERE WAS HE FROM? "He was frm Drchester, Virginia. He was arund there fr y.e ars.. He played in a band, he played in a brass band, JIm WhIte did, but he culd pick a banj, t. And Hmer Crawfrd frm Tennessee, he played the banj this ld f~shined -- he tuned his banj dwn like I d and played m the ld fashined way a whle lt. I never did play.the knckdwn. I picked either with ne finger,. r WIth tw fingers, and thumb. But I tune my?anj and play the piece straight, I dnyt play secnd li.i~e a lt f them d n it and it's a different way f playmg. It's sme pepie likes it and I guess they's sme desnyt like it. S whenever I gt lder,. when this rck-.an~-rll and different kind f music cme arund, I didn t - - I never did -- like that I didn't g fr it. And dn't like it yet and f c0u~se at my age I'm nt suppse t like it. I like sacred numbers better'than any ther kind f music nw. I lve t hear hymns and sacred sngs. 'Cu~se, there's a lt f gd flk sngs yet. I dn't -- music dn't thrill me like it did when I was a by. It used t thrill me frm the tp f my head t the sles f my feet. I culd hear music and Pd want t dance. I used t be a fairly gd dancer danced in several cntests in cuntry theaters and Pve dance, I guess, as high as 20 and 30 peple, and buck-and-.wing dancin.g just lil~e a c<?lred. fellw. I wn first prize 2 r 3 different times m dan~mg cntests. But nw my legs, each ne f them seems like they weigh 500 punds. Pm 65 years ld thugh, makes a lt f difference thugh, back when I was 25 r 30. " CAN YOU REMEMBER WHEN IT WAS THAT YOU FIRST HEARD THAT BUNCH OVER THERE IN DORCHESTER PLAY? "Oh, yes, I remember that. I wasn't but abut 15 years ld, that's been smething like 50 years ag. "

THAT'S ABOUT WHEN YOU STARTED TO PLAY? "Yes, yes, I started just after that. I started trying t learn hw t playa banj. Been playing smething like 50 years. I've nt... been learning t play fr that lng, f curse. I've nt learned yet like I'd like t, but still I can playa lt f pieces I like t play. " 4. PLAYING STRAIGHT, PLAYS 'TURKEY IN THE STRAW', IDS BAND I WONDER, JUST HOW DO YOU MEAN 'PLAYING STRAIGHT?' I DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT. "Well, it's picking it by nte, pick the ntes f it. Where yu just -- yu're playing secnds titn making chrds, and yu're picking the ntes whenever yu're playing it straight. " OH, YOU MEAN PICKING OUT JUST WHAT YOU'RE SINGING? "Yes, picking ut just what yu sing, yes. I'll give yu just a little bit f that "Turkey in the Straw" the way that I make ne nte n it... (Plays)... Haven't played that, yu knw -- dn't fl with it s lng -- why, that pieces like that, I've nt played. I've let my banj g, as I tell yu, and then play just - brrw ne and play -- maybe 3, 4 times in the last 25 years, and yu can frget what little yu knw. " YOU MENTIONED TO ME THAT YOU'D PLAYED FOR A LOT OF DIFFERENT KINDS OF PEOPLE, LIKE SOMETIMES YOU'D PLAYED FOR JUST PARTIES AND THEN SOMETIMES YOU PLAYED FOR HIGH-PRICED MONEY. "Well, played where we'd cllect ff each persn cme in, yu knw -- pay s much. " WHAT KIND OF... WAS THAT A SHOW YOU PUT ON? "Yeah, it was a shw, a musical shw, yu knw. I had ther musicians with me then. I had a real gd fiddler and tw guitar players part f the time, and smetimes I had a girl that played a ukelele -- and she danced, t. They was fur in my band ne time, they danced. " WHAT WERE THEIR NAMES? "I played with Beulah Batwright, Sctt Batwright - - bth them was very gd musicians. " FROM AROUND HERE? "Yes, frm Sctt Cunty ver here. Sctt lives ver there nw. I think Beulah lives back ver there. I played with Charlie Pwers and (an) ld man, his father, was a fiddler, ld time fiddler. He made phngraph recrds, they did, fr Victr back years ag, befre ever I made any, and Charlie he cme stayed with me fr abut a year and he played the guitar with me. And Sctt Batwright cme stayed with me a while, and als Melvin Rbnett -- played the fiddle, he's a very gd fiddler. We played cuntry theaters, schls, high schls -- schls in the cuntry we'd have plumb full. Lt f times we'd make three, fur hundred dllars a week. " ABOUT WHEN WAS THAT? "That was back in '2-- I believe it was '29. " ' AFTER YOUR RECORDS HAD COME OUT? "Yes." DO YOU THINK THAT HELPED YOUR RECORDS, OR THE RECORDS HELPED THAT? "The recrds helped get the crwds, I'm pretty sure, because a lt f them that had my recrds had never heard me play in persn. They came ut t hear us play. " 5. "D" TUNING AND HOMER CRAWFORD, GUITAR PLAYING THIS TUNING, KEY, THAT YOU USE HERE IN THE KEY OF D, WHERE YOU PLAY' THE COUNTRY BLUES,' DO YOU REMEMBER WHERE IT WAS YOU EVER FIRST HEARD THAT, OR DID YOU JUST WORK THAT OUT YOURSELF? " N, Hmer Crawfrd played "The Cuntry Blues, " r " Hustling Gamblers, " in that key, and there's s many mre pieces I play: " Oh Death, " "Drunkard's Lne Child, " and " Calvary, " and "Prdigal Sn" -- play that all in that. " DO YOU REMEMBER WHAT TOWN THAT HE WAS FROM? " I dn't knw what twn he was frm in Tennessee. He's a phtgraph man made pictures fr peple like they used t. Carried a' camera arund n his shulders. Cme up thrugh this cuntry and went ver thrugh The Pund. Used t stay at my uncle's -3- ver n The Pund thrugh there. Stayed all night with me after I was married, and he culd playa fiddle and a banj bth. " HE'D PLAY AS HE CAME ALONG? "Yes, if yu had an instrument, why he'd stay all night with yu and play sme music, yu knw. Never did pay nthing fr his ldging r anything like that. Peple's glad t have him because he knwed a lt f ld sngs. Mst peple liked music and they wasn't s much f it back then. They wasn't but just a few clred fellws yu see played guitar then. NOW, anybdy yu see nearly can pick a guitar. In nearly all the Hliness churches nw they have guitars. Wmen play them a lt. We've gt tw peple in the church, Free Pentecstal Hliness Church f Gd where I belng, up n Guest's River, plays music. " I WONDER IF THIS HOMER CRAWFORD WOULD STILL BE LIVING? "I dn't think he's living yet. He was a great big fleshy fellw and I heard he was dead. I've nt seen him fr years and I think he's dead. If he was living, he'd be getting awful ld, 75 prbably. I have an idea he'd be 75, maybe 80 years ld nw. I think he's dead. " I WONDER HOW I COULD FIND OUT WHAT TOWN HE LIVED IN? "I really haven't gt n idea. " SOUNDS LIKE HE TRAVELED A LOT. "Yeah, he did. Yu can find lts f peple knwed him. He made pictures. He had an awful gd dispsitin, turn, everybdy liked him, yu knw. He culd Sing gd. Peple liked that, t yu knw. " 6. PRAC TICING AND TIMING FOR RECORD "Well, I practiced an awful lt, and I even tk a watch and timed myself, 2 minutes and 40 secnds, and if my sng wasn't hardly lng enugh fr t g the 2 minutes and 40 secnds, why I'd alternate a verse. Just pick it pen and nt sing, and then -- r either I'd sing frm the start g r maybe I'd alternate ne, pick ver a piece if I didn't have hardly enugh t make a recrd, 'till I'd make it cme ut t a 2 minute and 40 secnd recrd. We had different recrds then what we gt nw. And 2 minutes and 40 secnds is all we had t d it, and we had altgether different technique and way they made the recrd than the way they d nw, I suppse. I made recrds in New Yrk the first time, in Chicag the secnd time, but they recrd them nw dwn in Memphis Tennessee and different places. " ' WHO DID YOU RECORD FOR IN CHICAGO? "Fr 'The Lnesme Ace -- Withut A Ydel.' He's a fellw individual, frm up here at Richland, Virginia. W. 'E. Myers. M-y-e-r-s, Myers. W. E. Myers." 7. PLAYING FOR A LIVING, TRIP TO NEW YORK DID YOU MAKE A COMPLETE LIVING PLAYING MUSIC FOR A WHILE? "Yeah, fr a little while they was a few mnths that I didn't d anything when I was ver in Kentucky. " IS THAT WHEN YOU WERE RECORDING, YOU MEAN? "That was just after I'd make thse recrds and I figured n making sme mre. I was playing in schls and theaters, and I'd play fr private dances r anything and make sme mney ff it. I played fr ld Senatr Brck and his family when they was visiting up in Kentucky ver there, swimming pl. They paid me pretty gd fr playing; me and my band played fr them. This Cmbs, this gvernr f Kentucky, I played sme fr him ver there, t. I think it was Bert Cmbs. I'm pretty sure it was, can't hardly remember. It was befre he was ever elected. " WHAT DID YOU CALL YOUR BAND? " The Cumberland Muntaineers, Dck Bggs and His Cumberland Muntaineers, I believe. I've gt a handbill here, where I had printed with it. Cumberl.and Muntain Entertainers, Dck Bggs and His Cumberland Muntain Entertainers. " DID YOU EVER RECORD FOR THE PARAMOUNT RECORD PEOPLE UP THERE IN, I GUESS IT WAS CHICAGO? " N, I never did make n recrds fr them. " WAS THAT YOUR FIRST TRIP TO NEW YORK WHEN YOU WENT UP THERE? "Oh, I'd never ~een ut f

these hills, this muntain here. I studied - - I didn't knw hw I was ging t d, r hw -- I was selfcnscius enugh and always had thught enugh abut myself t care abut what peple thught abut me, and wanted t act as near like a human being as I shuld, as I culd. I was afraid I'd make a lt f mistakes, but I cme t find ut after I went with these ther fellws up there, with Jhn Dykes and Hub Mahaffey, and Miss Vermillin. Pr ld man Dykes, he was a gd friend f mine -- I dn't want t say any harm r anything, but he pulled sme awful bners. " DO YOU REMEMBER ANY OF THEM? "Yeah, he lst his pcketbk. Gt it picked in New Yrk's Central Statin in New Yrk ging in there, and didn't lse t much mney, but the president f the (recrd) cmpany asked him -- Brphy, I believe his name was -- asked him, 'Hw much did yu have in yur pcketbk?' He says, 'Bggs,' he turned arund t me, 'Bggs, I've lst my pcketbk.' And he turned arund t him and said, 'Hw much did yu have in there, Mr. Dykes?' He said, 'Had abut 12 dllars.' Said, 'Well, I wuldn't wrry abut that if that's all yu had, ' he said. 'The wrst part abut it, ' he said, 'it was yur fellws'.' He said, 'Well, dn't let that bther yu at all.' It was theirs, he give it t him t pay the expenses, yu knw. And then he called the waiter arund while we was in New Yrk eating in a htel cafe: I wasn't at the table with them at that time. Miss Vermillin was telling me abut it; she said she felt like sinking thrugh the flr. He tk his finger and wiggled, mtined fr a waitress t cme ver t the table and asked her hw much she gt a week! " WHO ASKED THAT? "Well, Jhn Dykes. The pr fellw's dead nw, but I asked him if he was thinking abut getting him a jb ding sme waitress wrk dwn there. He says, 'Why?' I said, 'Yu asked that waitress hw much she was getting a week. ' YOU WENT UP ON THE TRAIN, DID YOU? "Yes, we went frm Ashland, Kentucky in t New Yrk n the train, and then we cme back n a train frm there. We -- ging dwn there, why they was ging t buy us pullman tickets like we shuld have went: first class, because they was paying ur expenses. Old man Dykes begged me t nt g ~- t take the pullman. The lady's the nly ne t take the pullman, Miss Vermillin, and me and Hub Mahaffey and ld man Dykes rde the day cach and played fr every train crew, I reckn, between Ashland and New Yrk City. I culd play anything they'd play, n the banj. S we had a banj, fiddle, and a guitar going. We made music. And then when we gt in there, why first thing ff -- we gt in there in the mrning - - ready fr me t recrd, wanted me t recrd. I tld them I felt t bad, I'd have t rest ver anther day. I hadn't slept nne and they wanted t knw why I hadn't slept, and I tld them Mr. Dykes wanted t take the day cach, didn't want t take the pullman. We just cme n with him, what he said. I said -- I asked them -- if they had any beer there in the htel, we gt there. They said, 'N, we're ut f beer, ' bellhp said. I said, 'Yu gt sme liqur?' And he said, 'Yeah, whiskey; gt. sme sctch.' 'Nine dllars a quart, ' he says -- a fifth. 'Gt sme rye -- 14 dllars a fifth.' I said, 'Wait a minute' -- that's Prhibitin Days -- I said, 'That sctch. Yu wait just 'till I see my buddies. That's but three dllars apiece. We'll maybe get us a fifth f that, have smething t kind f spur us up a little bit.' S I mentined t Mr. Dykes, and he said that he was ging t payff a mrtgage he had against him hme, said, 'I can't affrd t spend nthing fr liqur like that.' S I asked Hub Mahaffey. Hub said -- I let him taste f it -I'd already gt a fifth, paid fr it myself -- let him get his lip int it a little. I says, 'I ain't gnna let yu get in there deep until yu -- if yu want, help pay fr it, yu can get in it. It's awful gd. It's sctch whiskey. ' And he tasted f it and said, 'Pur me ut a drink f that.' The next mrning we drank that up and he hadn't ever paid me yet. And I said yu well still we fr that half-fifth f whiskey, and he said, he cursed and said, 'If yu're afraid f it, I'll give it t yu.' And I said, 'N, just hld up a minute, ' and I taken the phne dwn and called up anther fifth. S anther bellhp he just -4- charged us 8 dllars fr that ne. S then when that ne was gne we called up anther ne and we paid 25 dllars fr 3 fifths f liqur. Of curse, we gave ld man Dykes a drink f it since he wasn't able t buy nne -he's lder than us. Give the lady a little taste. " THIS LADY, DID SHE PLAY? "She played aut harp, gd singer and a fine wman. " SHE PLAY AUTOHARP WITH THE TRIO? "Yes, with Jhn Dykes and Hub Mahaffey. She had a family, and they live ver at Kingsprt, Tennessee n a farm. They' re fine peple. ". MISS---? "Vermillin, Miss Vermillin. They live n a farm ver there at Kingsprt. Nice peple. I dn't knw whether she plays any music nw at all. " DID SHE PLAY ANY TUNES ON THE AUTOHARP, DO YOU REMEMBER? OR DID SHE JUST PLAY CHORDS? "N, she played with the guitar and fiddle. She played the pieces they played. " WHAT I MEAN TO SAY IS DID SHE KIND OF LEAD, TAKE THE LEAD EVER? "N, they didn't allw her t. She didn't Sing any. Hub Mahaffey was the nly ne sing any." I MEAN ON THE AUTOHARP? "I dn't think she did. In fact I didn't pay much attentin t it at the time because i wasn't interested in aut harps much. " WHEN DID YOU LAST HEAR OF HUB MAHAFFEY? "I haven't heard f him in 8 r 10 years. " HE WAS IN KINGSPORT, THEN? "He made a trip thrugh Kentucky and stpped at my huse, and I wasn't at hme. Over in Hayman, Kentucky, and I dn't knw where I was gne. I had me a little band when I lived in Hayman, an Indian that played the fiddle and his by, picked the guitar. " WHA T WAS THEIR NAME? 00 YOU REMEMBER? "Hllands. Jhn Hlland. He went t Oklahma, and he's dead nw. He's a left handed fiddler, played ver his tw basses, but he culd play anything I played n the banj, and he fllwed right alng with that fiddle -- but he played awful sft music. His by was gd, t. His by gt the end f his finger cut ff wrking n a cal machine -- he run a cal machine -- and he can't play anymre. But he used t be awful gd. " 8. MORE ABOUT LEARNING TO PLAY, HOMER CRAWFORD "I started ut, I learned a little bit frm my brther, my lder brther. Sme f thse ld pieces he played. And then anther brther that I had was 10 years lder than me. He culd playa little bit, just the "Reuben'S Train, " and "Cuba" and stuff like that. And in playing alng, why, I'd pick up a little frm smebdy else. Then I heard this here Hmer Crawfrd frm Tennessee playing "Cuntry Blues" r "The Hustling Gambler." I heard him play it ne time, it was right alng abut the time I gt married, r maybe it was befre I gt married -- I been married 45 years. He cme and stayed all night with me. He didn't have n banj and I didn't even have n banj then. At that time I dn't think I'd ever gt my banj in, but I rdered it just a little while after that. But I did g brrw a fiddle fr him, and he stayed all night. Then ne night ut at my brther Rsce's -- he was sick then -- he had him play the fiddle and the main piece he played was "The Pr Girl On The Pund." Did yu ever hear that?" PARDON ME? "Pr Girl On The Pund." Did yu ever hear that n the fiddle? Lnesmest piece yu ever heard played n the fiddle. " WELL NOW, DID HOMER CRAWFORD, DID HE PLAY 'THE COUNTRY BLUES' AT ALL LIKE THE WAY YOU PLAY IT NOW? "Well, I dn't knw. I can't -- I've nt seen him in 35-40 years. Last time I seen him, it's been ver 40 years. I dn't think I've seen him in been abut 43 r 4 years, but I heard he was dead, and really I dn't remember exactly. But it's pretty much the same versin the way that I play, "The Hustling Gamblers." I dn't knw whether he sung as much f the sng as I sing r nt. But he was the main ne that brught that sng int this cuntry in my knwing, is Hmer Crawfrd ut f Tennessee. "

DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA OF WHERE IN TEN NESSEE HE CAME FROM? "I dn't knw. I culd find ut if I was t see sme f my cusins, Phillipses n The Pund. I never did knw. He might have tld me, but I've frgtten. " AND YOU SAY HE WAS A PHOTOGRAPHER? " Yes, yeah he carried a camera with him, ne f them ldfashined cameras. He finished his wn pictures and everything. He'd get him a dark rm smewheres. He'd take pictures ver the cuntry, and it was smeplace where he'd be staying. He'd generally stay smewheres they lved music and maybe they'd have an instrument. He hardly, very seldm ever carried a fiddle with him r anything t play n. But he knwed peple in the cuntry where he traveled that did keep them and had them, and they were glad fr him t cme. They fixed him the best f meals fr t eat and take care f him, treat him nice, yu knw. He made a little mney n the side ma.cing pictures, yu knw. I heard he was dead; I guess he is dead, because he's a man 10 years lder than me r maybe lder. That wuld make him 75 years ld nw. Maybe he was lder than that. " HE JUST TRAVELED ON FOOT? "Well, he cme n the train up here, f curse, and then n ft thrugh these hills up these rivers and creeks and ver the valleys and places - - just walked. He tk his time. He'd stp anywhere and stay all night. Peple back then, they was very hspitable in this cuntry, and he was well knwn, everybdy knwed him. He was liked by everybdy. When a persn was knwn and liked by peple, why they wuld divide their last biscuit with them nearly. That's the way peple have always been. 'Curse, we gt sme peple -- anywhere it's nt like that, but mst peple are very nice t peple -- friends r strangers that cme by, peple that's traveling r anything like that. " 9. COMMENTS WHILE LOOKING OVER SONG TEXTS HE HAS WRITTEN DOWN OR COLLECTED WHEN DID YOU WRITE ALL THESE SONGS DOWN, DOCK, ON THESE PIECES OF PAPER THAT YOU HAVE HERE? "Oh, just all thrugh life, ever since - whenever I hear smething I liked, why I'd get the ballet f it. There's a lt f peple wuldn't give nthing fr smetning like that, wuldn't have wanted it, whereas I kind f, yu knw -- a lt f it tuched my heart kind f. " SIDE TWO 1. MORE ON LEARNING TO PLAY BANJO AND FIRST "PLAYING OUT" " I dn't knw, seem like I'd just try s hard, and I'd sit dwn and practice fr hurs a lt f times, just trying t get sme tune I was wanting t learn, yu knw -- s that I culd play it. I wuld anny my wife plenty f times. I've kept her awake nights. The first night I gt my new banj in, I set up, just me in a rm by myself. 'Curse, she was in the rm. I dn't believe she.slept much -- me a flim-flamming n that ld banj trying t kind f playa few pieces. I'd already kind f learned a few, still, I learned mst f my playing right n that Sears and Rebuck banjo. S, I learned several pieces, and a lt f peple, several peple, lve t hear me play. I'd be invited ut t little parties and t peple's hmes when they have cmpany. Lts f times want smene t entertain them, playa little music fr them. Back then we didn't have the radi, let alne televisin. It wasn't but a very few peple had an ld-fashined talking machine - - a phngraph, yu'll recall. I played music fr 25 years befre ever I wned even smething I culd playa recrd n. " 2. a. ABOUT 'DOWN SOUTH BLUES' AND PLAYING BLUES ON THE BANJO, AND HOW ABOUT 'THE DOWN SOUTH BLUES?' CAN YOU REMEMBER WHERE YOU HEARD THAT? "Well, -5- I learned that ff f a phngraph recrd. My brtherin-law -- that was when we lived ver here at Sutherland wrking fr a while fr Wise Cal and Cke Cmpany - he was a persn that bught an awful lt f these phngraph recrds at that time when th~y was selling quite a lt f them in thrugh here. Played them n these ldfashined machines. I guess that he had prbably 2 r 3 hundred f them. He had that there "Dwn Suth Blues." If I'm nt mistaken, he had "Mistreated Mama Blues" n a recrd. I think it was sang and recrded by Mary Martin, r Sara Martin, r sme wman; and it was accmpanied by a pian. Anyway, I never did hear it played n a banj r guitar r nthing else -- any kind f string music -- 'till just I cmmenced learning it myself, cmmenced playing it. In fact, I played fr years that I never heard a man playa banj that culd play any kind f blues n a banj -- any kind. I gt t playing with sme bys, Sctt Batwright and anlher ne, I believe it was Melvin Rbenatt. And Sctt says, 'I'm ging t playa piece f blues, ' and said t me, 'Dck, yu can wait till we play this here piece f blues.' I said, ' Yu think them blues ain't n this banj neck the same as they're n that guitar? They're just as much n this banj neck as they are n that guitar r pian r anywhere else if yu knw where t g and get it, and if yu learn it and knw hw t play it. 'Play the blues and see if I dn't play them, see if I dn't fllw yu.' And he played a piece f blues and sang them, and I went right alng with him very gd fr the first time, hearing them while he was playing them. I dn't remember what that blues was, because I had sme blues myself, 3 r 4 different blues that I played then all the time - - I mean all alng. " HAD YOU PLAYED 'THE DOWN SOUTH BLUES' THEN? I dn't remember whether I was playing "The Dwn Suth Blues" then r nt. " WHEN DID YOU START WITH THE 'DOWN SOUTH?' "I cmmenced playing "The Dwn Suth Blues - - must have started, h, must have been 40 years ag, maybe. Abut 40 years ag, I guess. " ABOUT 1923? " Yes, I have an idea that's abut -- n, I must have started befre that, because I knw I tk my banj and I went t Hemphill -- that's fr the Elkhrn Cal Crpratin -- and stayed ver there a little while, had my banj ver there. I played "The Dwn Suth Blues" then, and "Jhn Henry, " and " Pr Ellen Smith, " and "Jhn Hardy, " and different pieces like that, and "Pretty Plly." Then peple wuld gather up ut there. We'd get ut frm a barding hus e and sit under a big tree, and I'd have great big bunches f men gather up t hear me play. I was wrking in the mines lading cal, but I had my banj ver there with me and I played a lt f different pieces at that time. " b. BRUNSWICK AUDITION, PLAYING FOR A LIVING "I never thught abut, give it n thught abut, ever playing cmmercially r playing t recrd music fr phngraph cmpanies r nthing like that much. 'Till I gt the pprtunity. I was wrking here in 1927 in Pardee, Virginia, and I was wrking n a cal machine when I happened t cme dwntwn in Nrtn here and met a friend f mine, Hughie Rland. He said, 'Dck, why dn't yu g up there t the Nrtn htel? There'S tw men here frm New Yrk and ne frm Ashland, Kentucky, trying ut muntain talent; and they're ging t give them cntracts t cme t New Yrk t make phngraph recrds.' I said, 'Well, I've nt gt n banjo dwn here, and they've gt a lt f musicians dwn here that dn't d nthing but play. I wrk fr a living, myself, and I dn't never try t play fr mney. Dn't guess I'd have much f a chance f getting t recrd anyway.' He said, 'Well, it wuldn't hurt anything t tryut. Yu can brrw a banj up at the music stre.' I said, 'Well, I dn't knw whether I've gt hardly enugh nerve t g up there and tryut carrying this banj up there in under my arm. All these fellws, lt f them, g arund here and they gt 2 r 3 in their bands playing and they make.gd Ul'-!-sic.

I lve t hear them. Me ging up there walking with a little ld banj ain't even gt a case n it, stuck under my arm, why, I'd lk awful crny -- lk awful funny.' He said, 'Well, I'd g anyhw. There's a trip t New Yrk, and yu've never hardly been in a large city. JtVd be a great trip fr yu. The trip wuld be wrth 500 r a thusand dllars t yu whether yu gt any mney ut f the recrd r nt. '" WHO WAS THIS TALKING? "Hughie Rland. He's dead nw; he died at MacRberts'. I said, 'Well, I believe I'll d that.' S I slipped ff up n Guest's River t a place where they sld a drink and I gt me a halfpint f mnshine whiskey and I drank that befre I played -- 2 r 3 drinks -- try t give me nerve s I culd g dwn and get befre thse peple. When I went up tnere, there was a whle gang f musicians: I dn't knw, 100 r 150 maybe, up there arund in that ballrm. Sme i these little bunches were playing music, hammering n it. These peple came running ver t me and said, the man frm New Yrk said, 'D yu play that thing? D yu play that?' And I said, 'I play ne like it. This is nt mine, but I play ne similar t it a little bit.' 'Let's hear a piece. What's yur name?' I give him my name and the title f the number I was ging t play, "The Dwn Suth Blues, " and started playing. They was in a big hurry; they wuldn't listen t that much f it. They tk my name dwn and the title f the piece -- all three f them had papers in frnt f them - and I nticed that they marked "gd" at tne end f the sng. Then I give them "Cuntry Blues," which was "Hustling Gamblers, " the ld title f it. I started t play that, and played abut a verse r maybe a little ver a verse. They marked "gd" at the end f that, and the next thing, here they was cming with a cntract fr me t sign and g t New Yrk City in the next three weeks. It was a surprise t me. All s sudden, and I didn't get much ut f it, either. Still the trip, as the man tld me, Hughie Rland, said, was wrth a lt f mney t me just t get t g dwn and stay a few days in New Yrk City when I had never been ut f the hills in my life. " BUT DIDN'T YOU PLAY FOR ANY KIND OF MONEY BEFORE THAT? "N." YOU WENT INTO THE SCHOOLS AFTER THAT? "Yes, it was after that I played fr mney. I gt pretty gd pay fr playing after I made thse recrds. I'd get whle schls, schl auditriums, full f peple. Just me and a guitar player, at different times just have a guitar player with me. We'd make real gd. It wasn't much mney -- they didn't pay as much wages then -- but as far as my part f it, financial end f it, why, I dne real gd. I was making mre mney, much mre, than I culd wrking, if I just went n and bked places and played regular, r either gt me a manager. I did have me a manager fr a while. There was a lawyer ver at Whitesburg, he just quit his practice, and went ut bking places fr me and my gang t play at. We played that way fr a few mnths and then, seem like sme f my musicians they didn't agree, get alng. It wasn't me, they didn't fall ut with me r anything, but the tw guitar players -- it seemed like they disagreed, and first thing I knew, why, ne f the guitar players Slipped ff and joined the army, and he went ver and gt killed n Crregidr Island. Married ne f thse native girls and him and his wife and baby was killed by the Japs when they came in there. Then Sctt Batwright, the tner ne that played the guitar, he came back ver in Virginia, and s did Melvin Rbnett that played the fiddle. And after that a while, Melvin Rbnett, he nt t lng after that jined the church. Becme a Christian, and I reckn he still plays fiddle prbably in the church. He dn't play nthing but sacred numbers, and he dn't play t many, I dn't guess, f them. He may nt be in practice like he used t be when he was a real gd fiddler. He culd play all the pieces that Burnett and Rutherfrd putut, all the numbers they played and several thers; and he culd play them just as gd -- the way I thught abut it -- as Rutherfrd played his fiddle. He'd play and Sing right with his fiddle, and sunded gd. " 3. 'COAL CREEK MARCH' AT LAND E'ALE, LEFT COAL LOADING FOR MU8IC -- AND 'THE COAL CREEK MARCH' WAS ONE OF THE FIRST TUNES THAT YOU...? "That was ne f the first chrding pieces that I learned. " DO YOU REMEMBER WHO PLAYED THAT? "N, I dn't. I didn't learn it ff f a phngraph recrd. I learned it -- I dn't knw wh. I seen them chrding, and I knwed the tuning that they had it in, and I just kept n fooling with it. I seen tw men with banjs that really culd play "The Cal Creek March." And they had wrds fr the sng f "The Cal Creek March." I never learned them. If I had wanted, and insisted, I culd have gt the wrds -- they wuld have given them t me, if they wuld have cared t at all. Back alng abut - - just after I made thse phngraph recrds, I guess it may have been in '27, last f '27, i 27 r i 28, that I seen these fellws. They was gd n that there "Cal Creek March," the best that ever I heard - anybdy -- 'cause they had the wrds t it; that's what made it s gd. " DO YOU REMEMBER HOW THE WORDS GO? "N, can't remember nary a thing abut that... " WHERE WAS THAT -- THAT YOU SAW THEM? "I saw them at a land sale, auctin sale, at Mayking, Kentucky. Jhnny Mrgan was having an auctin sale ver there. They was a lt f peple cme t that sale that day, and them tw banj pickers cme there. And it happened that I happened in there, t, and smebdy taken me because they knew it wuld be a gd crwd there. My recrds hadn't been ut very lng. S they picked the banjs dwn there; they were playing when I gt there. They had a big crwd f peple listening because there wasn't any ther entertainment there, nly just these banjs. I never heard a guitar there r anything else. S, I taken my banj ut f the case. There was sme peple there that knwed me and heard me play. They wanted me t play smething. I gt a little bit away frm them -- s nt hardly t bther them t play -- and played. It wasn't lng 'till I had a big crwd. They just surrunded me. One man there, I had t g hme with him fr dinner, and he had everything ver there what I liked, yu knw - - plenty t eat, plenty t drink. That was the man having the land auctined ff. S I stayed there 2 days and nights with them; I just hung up. They was the best peple ut f Whitesburg wuld cme up there, up t his huse, and cme there t hear me play the banjo. I dn't knw hw many gangs did cme up there. I made pretty well ut f it. I didn't even have t hardly ask them fr anything: they'd pitch me smething r ther t play. I dn't knw, I guess they gave me abut 25 r 30 dllars then, just withut me insisting r anything like that, just playing, just freely give it t me. I was just mnkeying arund, just enjying myself traveling, yu knw. Had my banjo alng with me. I didn't have n appintment r anything like that, t play. " DID YOU HAVE A JOB AT THAT TIME? "N, I wasn't wrking right then, right at that time. I mst all the time kept a jb, but at that time there was smething wrng, r I was ff, r had gt ff maybe t take ff fr a cuple weeks r smething like that. I never lst a jb ver my music, r being absent n accunt f making music. I did quit a jb ne time because I cmmenced getting s many calls, and s many letters, and s many invitatins. I went and played a few places that was handy, clse t where I was wrking. I seen that I'd get in s late at night that I just naturally didn't feel like getting up and ging ut t lad cal, wrking hard in the mines the next day. I was getting s that nearly every night I culd get t play smewhere if I wanted t play, and I culdn't see n reasn fr me t g ahead lading cal, and I tld the man, the freman I was wrking fr, I explained it t him. And he said, 'Why, yu're crazy fr lading cal in the first place. Why dn't yu stick t that, and why dn't yu play that, and g n and play? If peple wants t hear it, they'll pay yu fr it. What d yu want t fl with lading cal fr?' S I quit my jb at that time and played a while alng with Sctt -6-

pened and didn't knw anything abut it. They didn't cme in the frnt gate r the dr, knck n the dr; they cme arund... " WHO'S ~THEY?' "The fficers. Bill Willis, and Dc Cx -- bth f them are dead -- and Denver Shrt. He's living up here n Guest's River nw. We was playing music and I heard the huse jar and the dr being buttned and lcked t, the kitchen dr. My wife was in there washing the dishes. I had a. 38 Special sticking in my belt, and I just reached back and gt it and I handed my banjo t a persn there. I tld them t hld my banj a minute. I seen him's abut half-bwed, Dc Cx, ging acrss my kitchen. Buttn flew ff n the flr. Lck busted ff, busted in the dr -- didn't even knck r nthing. S whenever he seen me cme in -Bill Willis was right behind him and he had his pistl dwn in his hand. I had mine in my hand, had it in a pretty handy psitin. S Dc Cx, he grabbed my wife by the shulders; aiming t, I reckn, t push her between me and him s he culd maybe kill me and me culdn't get a sht at him. She just twisted ut f his hands all at nce and gt ver n the side and std. He's standing there, he hadn't ever reached fr his pistl yet, and I asked him why they brke int my huse. They said they was the law. I tld them they lked like law, a bunch f thieves, f bums cme up there breaking int peple's huses. I says, 'Yu're suppsed t knck n the dr if yu want in anybdy's hu s e. Yu haven't gt n mre right cming up here and breaking in my huse than I've gt a right t cme dwn and break int yur huse. We gt Cnstitutinal rights and I'm a citizen and a taxpayer.' I said, 'Nw Dc,~dn't reach after yur pistl 'less yu want t. ' And he had his hands abut half stuck up. I tld him, 'I've gt the advantage f yu guys, ' and I cursed them and said a lt f things I wuldn't say nw, wuldn't want t say nw. Bill Willis says, 'I dn't see hw yu gt the advantage f us. They's three f us and just ne f yu.' I said, 'The reasn I've gt the advantage f yu all's I dn't care fr dying as bad as yu guys d, ' and I says; 'I knw I'm gnna get ne f yu if I dn't get all three f yu if the shting starts, and it's ging t start pretty sn if yu guys dn't get in the rad where yu belng. ' I said, 'Dc, dn't reach fr yur pistl withut yu want t.' They never gt a drp f liqur, never seen a drp f liqur. And when they went up n the rad, thugh, I called Bill Willis back t the huse. Knwing him -- and I been with him different places befre he gt t be deputy sheriff -- I wasn't afraid f him shting me withut I tried t hurt him. S, he cme dwn and said, 'Dck, yu'll have t pay fr this. ' And I said, 'Pay fr what, Bill?' He said, 'Fr resisting the law.' I said, 'Nw yu fellws lks like law, cming up breaking int a man's huse. But I'll g dwntwn if that'll satisfy yu fellws, and give bnd, and I'll stand trial n it.' And when I went ut t my brther-in-iaw's -- wned sme land ut there, had a nice hme wrth a right smart f mney -- and aimed fr him t g my bnd, why, he deeded ff all his land t his daughter was wrking fr the telephne exchange. I didn't knw it 'till I gt ut there, s I just turned arund and said t the peple, 'Open the back dr. I'm nt going t g nwhere.' I wasn't with Dc Cx n way, nr Bill Willis. I had Denver Shrt with me; he lived dwn belw me. S, I just walked ut the back dr and had them take my car and fill it up with gasline, and put me a cuple quarts f il extra in it and I drve int Kentucky that night; and I stayed in Kentucky fr abut three and a half years after that, 'till Ted Carter bumped Dc Cx ff, killed him up there n Guest's River. I was ver here the day he gt killed. I didn't figure he'd live that lng, the kind f life he was living, way he was impsing n peple. Still, he did get by fr a lng time. I'm srry he gt killed, but he was electineering fr it. He gt what was cming t him. As far as me, he went and befre ever he gt killed he culdn't get a warrant fr me befre the magistrate in twn when he tld him he brken int my huse. He went befre the grand jury and swre that I held a pistl n him and my wife had pured ut a half-galln f mnshine liqur, s he gt Batwright and Pwers that stayed with me, and Melvin Rbnett. There was fur f us: tw guitars and banj and fiddle. I had this here lawyer managing fr us and bking places fr us ut f Whitesburg, and we dne very gd. And then, first thing I knwed, my bunch was all splitting up and ging first ne away and then anther. " HOW LONG WAS THAT? "That was alng abut '29, I guess. " I MEAN HOW LONG BE TWEEN THE TIME THAT YOU STARTED PLAYING FOR A LIVING WITH YOUR BUNCH AND THEN STOPPED? "We didn't play lng. We didn't play t lng at all. Did we play 6 mnths? Abut 6 mnths, r maybe altgether a year -- smething like that. " ABOUT WHAT AREA DID YOU PLAY? "We played ver in this cuntry nw, dwn thrugh St. Charles and Jnesville, cme dwn t Jnesville. Old man Jhn Dykes, I went with him there, but I didn't have this ~ame gang. I was with ld man Jhn Dykes then. Just a flddle and a banj. Smetimes we'd hire a guitar player fr t accmpany us, kind f help. We played at Big Stne Gap; pened up that swimming pl dwn there when it was pened up -- where that Big By Restaurant is nw. We played there fr a dance ne night -- they had a square dance -- and we played at the pening f that. And then we played sme ver in Sctt Cunty and sme alng int Jnesville. We went sme beynd Jnesville, sme dwn in there. " 4. WHY HE LEFT VIRGINIA IN 1928 "Yu see, I lived -- I mved up here -- abve Nrtn. That was whenever I had Sctt Batwright with me, and Melvin Rbnett, and we was playing music arund in different places. I lived right in the middle f a btlegging district; the peple in abut every ther huse sld whiskey. We'd drink all we culd get at that time. The law raided the rad a lt; and we had a pretty bad law, had a very bad reputatin, named Dc Cx, here. Of curse, he gt killed a little while after that. One f my friends killed him. They cme up t my huse -- well, there was sme peple -- I'm getting ahead f my stry -- frm dwn in Lee Cunty, tw carlads f them, cme up here. They heard I lived up n Guest's River. They wanted t hear me and my bunch playa piece r tw f music. They cme dwn t my huse, they's sme wmen and men, and tw men cme dwn there and asked me was this where Dck Bggs lived. I tld them, yes sir, they was talking t Dck Bggs nw. They intrduced themselves and said, shk hands with me and said, 'We want t hear yu play a little music. We dn't want yu t play fr nthing; we'll pay yu fr it. 9 I said, 'Well, the law's raiding this rad s much, and cars all parked ut here in frnt f my huse -- yu all's tw cars and my car parked ut there -- lk's like there's a crwd dwn here. And I dn't knw what yu might d r say. There's a lt f drunks pass in the rad a lt f times, and maybe smene cme in we wuldn't want in.' When they said 'We 9 11 pay yu fr it, ' ne man just pulled ut a dllar and he handed it t me; and_ sme thers cme up at abut that time and they laid $4.85 -- n the 10th f March, 19 and 28, I wn't never frget it - - in my hand and said, 'Play us three pieces and that'll satisfy us. That's all we'll ask yu t play if yu'll play it.' I said, 'Well, just get yur cmpany and bring them in the huse.' I turned arund t the bys first, thugh, that I played with, and I said, 'Sctt Melvin, yu fellws care t help me playa few pieces fr these gentlemen and their cmpany?' And they said 'Well that's all right, whatever yu want t d is all ~ight with us.' 'Well,' I said, 'we play fr mney and they dne paid me he~e $4. 85. t play them three pieces. We're at hme dolllg nthlllg, why, that's all right, we'll just clse the dr and ke.ep ~t the peple we dn't want in: drunks r anythlllg like that cming alng.' Clsed the drs and lcked them. The rm was nearly plumb full. We started t. pi.ay m~sic, played ne piece f music, and -- I'm telling It as It happened: there 9 s a lt f pe.9ple tld abut what hap-7-

fur warrants fr me in swearing that there. It wasn't nthing in the wrld but a nt-s. It wasn't true. He never gt a drp f liqur, never seen a drp f liqur.. There's a lt f peple, the way they gt it in their minds, there was liqur there and s n, and I left n accunt f liqur. But I left because I knew very well if he'd swear a lie fr t get a warrant fr me, he'd swear a lie fr t prsecute me; and the ther fellws were afraid t nt swear just like he swre. S three fficers swearing against a man like that subjects him t the penitentiary, and I didn't care nthing abut ging t the penitentiary, s I just went ver in Kentucky and tk up. I cme back ver here, thugh, and I live in Virginia nw, Nrtn, Virginia, and I been here fr the last nine years. " 5. ABOUT THE NAME 'DOCK' "They was a dctr in twn here, ne dctr; M. L. Stallard, Mran Lee Stallard was his name, and that's my name: Mran Lee. We had ne dctr in twn and he had s many calls he culdn't fill near all f them, but they wasn't many peple in Nrtn at that time and he was ut f twn. S, my father thught a lt f Dc Stallard, and mther did, t; and s whenever I was brn -- whenever I came int the wrld -- a by, why, they named me after Mran Lee Stallard. When I was just a little tddler tddling arund, why, my dad cmmenced calling me Dck, and all my brthers and sisters and everybdy called me Dck. And even peple, my acqua.intances -- and when I was ging t schl I didn't even want anybdy t even mentin the name Mran Lee- M--r-a-n L-duble-e. I thught that was awful ugly; I'd rather be called Dck tw-t-ne. S, after I gt lder, why, ding my fficial business and s n I Signed my right name Mran Lee, and when I made phngraph recrds, why, I decided I'd better have my name put n there the way that everybdy knwed me. And nearly everybdy knwed me Dck and they didn't knw anything abut my name being Mran Lee r M. L. Bggs." 6. HISTORY OF 'THE COAL CREEK MARCH' DOCK, I REMEMBER AFTER YOU PLAYED 'THE COAL CREEK MARCH' FOR ME DOWN IN ASHEVILLE, DID YOU - - IT WAS THEN THAT YOU LEARNED SOME MORE ABOUT IT? "Yes, I fund -- my brther-in-law, he's frm Tennessee. He was telling me where that sng "Cal Creek March" riginated frm and hw it cme abut. It was made -- they had sme labr truble dwn in Tennessee. The men had been ut n a strike and the state r gvernment r smething brught in... cnvicts t try t run the mines with cnvict labr, and the peple there tre it all up and turned them all lse. They had the state militia r guards r hme guards whatever yu call it in there, and they played up and dwn the rad then a sng they called" The Cal Creek March, " and it riginated frm that there strike and labr truble they had there, what I understand, and there was a sng made up abut it. I have never gt the wrds f it. " WHEN YOU SAY THE PEOPLE 'TORE IT UP, 9 YOU MEAN--? "When they brught in this here cnvict labr, why, they went and turned them lse where they was in stckades, and brke it up. They was ging t use the cnvict labr fr t mine the cal and s n. They had n a strike, and the peple just wuldn't stand fr it. " 7. STORY ABOUT SINGING 'ROWAN COUNTY CREW' "When I was -- I started t Atlanta, Gergia, ne time I cme ut frm Ashland, Kentucky, and I was alne -- just had my banj -- and pass ff the time I started playing the banj up thrugh there, and I must have been ging thrugh clse t where sme f this truble had happened. There's a man reached ver and said, 'Buddy, if I's yu I wuldn't play that thrugh here. ' He said, 'I lve t hear yu play, I like t hear yu Sing, I lve t hear the sng, I lve t hear yu play the banj, but I wuldn't play that thrugh here, because yu knw W s been years and years since that truble happened, but up here at Prestnburg in the curthuse yard abut a mnth r tw ag r smething like it a clred fellw playing that "Rwan Cunty Crew, " playing it n the guitar and Singing it sitting under a tree there in the curthuse yard. One f thse htheads, bys -- must have been a distant relative r smething t sme f these peple -- walked up t him, must have been abut drunk r.smething r ther, just pulled ut a 45 and sht the whle tp f his head ff.' And he said, 'It's a fact and I wuldn't play it thrugh here.' I said, 'Mister, I'll nt play it thrugh here!' S I just stpped playing it thrugh there. S, I'm dwn here t far nw, I dn't guess that there's anybdy wants t sht me fr playing it; s I'll play it fr yu the best I knw hw. " Interview transcribed by Jn Pankake FOLKWAYS RECORDS 165 West 46th Street New Yrk. N.Y. 10036 UIMO IN U.s.A. ~IS. -8-