ISO/TC 130 N 1566 ISO/TC 130 Graphic technology E-mail of Secretary: karin.winkelmann@din.de Secretariat: DIN WG3 N867 Minutes Beijing Date of document 2009-10-06 Expected action Info Source ISO/TC 130 (ISO/TC 130/WG 3)
Page 1 of ISO/TC130/WG3 N 867 MINUTES FROM THE 35 th MEETING OF ISO TC 130 WG 3 PROCESS CONTROL AND RELATED METROLOGY BEIJING, CHINA 2009-09-22/24 1 Opening of the meeting The meeting was called to order at 09:00 h by Mr. Andreas Kraushaar, convenor. He thanked SAC TC 170 for hosting the meeting and providing the excellent facilities. Mr. Warter was thanked for taking the minutes. 2 Roll call of experts and observers A roll call of experts was held. The scanned attendance list is given in Annex 1 to these minutes. Since the meeting was split over 3 days three attendance list have been used. 3 Review and approval of agenda Mr. Kraushaar discussed the agenda, (ISO/TC130/WG3 N 834). With some minor revisions as represented in these minutes, it was unanimously approved. In light of a potential overlap with working group 2 TF2 (PDF/X), on Friday sep 25 th, some experts suggested to made it possible to end the WG3 meeting appropriately. 4 Review and approval of the minutes from the prior Fort Worth meeting The minutes of the prior Forth Worth meeting (N 813) were unanimously approved. 5 Identification of new Documents Since the Fort Worth meeting the following new documents not included in the agenda (N 851) - were identified: N 824 TC130N1504 Result of SR ISO-12647-6 N 825 Form NWIP Revision ISO 12647-6 Vote N 848 French comment relating to the proofing papers substrate N 852 Swedish contribution on 12647-2 certification N 853 Presentation by Widmer (CH) concerning a potential post press standard N 854 ISO 12647-7 GWG proofing discussion summary N 855 UK presentation ISO 12647-7 field issues N 856 TC130N1539 French NB NWI Proof paper substrates 2009 0 N 857 12647-8 History Revie N 858 Softproof JapanProposal ViewingConditions comparison hardcopysoftcopy (replaces N 846) N 859 Present Thongpetch Concern of Light fastness 12647-7 N 860 TC6WG3N537 thoughts on illuminants Jordan N 861 LL Paperdam proposals Minutes Beijing 2009 09 24 N 862 presentation certification Netherlands 12647-2 N 863 IDEAlliance digital printing certification spec N 864 UK Progress Report ISO 12647/2_7 Certification N 865 LL NWI Proof paper presentation to WG 3 Minutes 2009 09
Page 2 of ISO/TC130/WG3 N 867 N 866 UK presentation Carbon Footprinting 6 Report of the convenor on the status of standards and work items Mr. Kraushaar reported on the current status of the related standards (N 833). 7 Review of Fort Worth action items No. Docum. Who? What? c, o 08/18 ISO 12647-6 Smiley, Cheydleur To determine how the proposed spot colour definitions (spectral measurement of tints on white and black substrates) facilitating CXF 08/19 ISO 12647-6 Smiley, Kraushaar To spec out colour tolerances (allowing for chroma/hue angle variances) for the colour definitions on flexo printing solid coloration tolerances 08/20 ISO 12647-6 Smiley, Claypole To prepare a working draft from the proposed revised version of 12647-6 and circulate to the members of WG3 for the next meeting the define hue without specific L*a*b* 08/23 ISO 12647-2 Warter, Hossli, Meinecke To Compare the LWC press runs (ECI) with SWOP3 char.-data 08/24 ISO 12647-2 Warter To analyse FOGRA40, 41 and SWOP5 with respect to (future) ISO paper type 08/26 ISO 12647-2 Kraushaar, Leutkens, Bruno, degroot, Hossli, Lanat, Hannemann 08/29 Paper specification Hannemann, Lanat, Hossli 08/30 ISO 12647-3 Rich, McDowell, Beckmann, Thees To propose a method of specifying proof to print paper (guidelines for specification) based on ISO 12647-7 To propose a standardized method of measuring and documenting the amount of OBA present in a substrate. To review changes and make recommendations as to whether to amend or correct the document 09/01 ISO 13656 McDowell Review the needs for update to 13656 in light of the revised 5 series and make a proposal in Beijing 09/02 ISO 14981 Kraushaar draft a plenary resolution to withdraw 14981 in Beijing 09/03 ISO 12647 Lanat Write a white paper on the problems with UV and brightened papers that will serve as the basis for future actions especially a joint working group with TC 6 and TC 42. C O C, WD submitted N801 O, Printing conditions have been published. O Closed, NWI from Fr (N 848) C, Paperdam presentation C No changes needed. O, Pending publication of 13655 and ISO 5 C C, Lanat to submit a paper from Byron Jordan (N 860)
Page 3 of ISO/TC130/WG3 N 867 09/04 ISO 12646 McDowell Prepare the DIS ballot for the amendment to 12646 for forwarding to ISO by the secretariat 09/05 ISO 12646 Secretariat, Luetkens Requests ISOCS to register a stage 0 project for development of a standard entitled Graphic technology- Requirements for colour proofing systems using electronic displays 09/06 ISO 12646 Luetkens Draft a document to reflect this discussion as the basis for the new standard on Requirements for colour proofing systems using electronic displays 09/07 ISO 12647-7 Warter Start to develop a list of concerns/potential changes for a revision to 12647-7 (e.g. margin comments, comparable florescence for proofing and print papers, a replacement metric for delta H) 09/08 ISO 12647-7 Bertholdt, Lanat Develop a program in WG4 to aid in addressing the testing of proofing papers and their effect on the total visual proof to print image match. 09/09 ISO 12647-7 Bohan Compare the 12647-7 rub test to other tests available in the U.S. 09/10 ISO 12647-7 Kraushaar Send test kits to Dr. Bohan and to Mr. Mortara 09/11 ISO 12647-8 Warter Prepare the document 12647-8 for ballot as a CD 09/12 ISO 12647 McDowell Prepare a draft of a process agnostic standard process control to be evolved from 12647 for the Beijing meeting 09/13 ISO 12647-4, 2846-3 Meinecke, Bertholdt 09/14 ISO 12647-6 Smiley, McDowell, Barros Supply the ink and gamut data for the new proposed gamut 2 data for revisions to 12647-4 and 2846-3 to WG3 and WG 4 Provide a revised draft of the document (Flexo N801) with introduction and comments included to the Secretariat for submission as a NWIP by June 15 09/15 ISO 12647-2 Meinecke Include the full WG3 TG1 group on Intergraf reports C C C, Document proposed (N836) C, List is in progress C O C, but now feedback so far. C, Document N 823 C, Document N 847 O C, Document N 835 C 8 Review and discussion of standards and current work items 8.1 ISO 14981:2000, Graphic technology Process control Optical, geometrical and metrological requirements for reflection densitometers for graphic arts use Mr. Kraushaar has developed a resolution to withdraw this standard, which will be presented to the Plenary. 8.2 ISO 12646/Amd1, Graphic technology Displays for colour proofing Characteristics and viewing conditions
Page 4 of ISO/TC130/WG3 N 867 Mr. Kraushaar reported on the progress of the document. No further effort is presently needed. 8.3 ISO/NWIP 14861 Graphic technology Colour Proofing using electronic displays Mr. Kraushaar explained that the document is under ballot and that the discussion is only to discuss general and philosophical questions to allow experts to understand the concept of the current document better. Mr. Leutkens reviewed the proposed document (N 836) currently out for ballot. The draft document fulfills the needs outlined in Fort Worth. Mr. Revie raised the question of specifying CIEDE2000. A better consistency and applicability were cited as the main reasons. Mr. Takita gave a presentation (N 858). Mr. Kraushaar reported on results of a finished 2-year research project focused on objectively assessing the quality of a Softproofing system. He described three use cases: photographer needs ( What is inside my data? ), reproduction ( How does my data looks on a chose printing condition? ), viewing booth ( Does my production run looks as the reference? ). He stressed important components namely the environment, display, measurement and control (driving). He mentioned Stable gamma with viewing angle as a major problem. Mr. Green stressed the need for color appearance modeling as part of the matching process. Mr. Kraushaar stated that visual matching or fine-tuning is sometimes needed of set up. 8.4 ISO 12647-7,Graphic technology Process control for the manufacture of half-tone colour separation, proofs and production prints Part 7: Proofing processes working directly from digital data Mr. Kraushaar explained the current status. The document is published but there are some comments and concerns that should be collected in order to allow the experts and national bodies to make an informed decision to potentially revise that document. Mr. Revie gave a presentation on issues with ISO 12647-7 in the field (N 855). He pointed out that in the present standard it is possible for large hue errors to be within tolerance using the prescribed averaging method. Also the allowed measurement error was too large due to the requirement for allowance for interinstrument error. He suggested that a note should indicate that tighter tolerances were possible with one instrument. Action item 09/16: McDowell and Cheydleur to develop a method by which tolerances could be specified that minimized the contribution of inter-instrument agreement in colour measurements to allow tighter tolerances for 12647-7 and 8. Action item 09/17: Warter and Revie to develop a proposal for changes to 12647-7 based on McDowell s and Cheydleur s recommendations and input from the committee to further differentiate it from 12647-8. Mr. Revie gave a second presentation on margin information in order to properly relate the PDF to the proof (N 854). He recommended including date and time and to highlight the last five or six digits of the document ID of the document. Mr. Thongpetch gave a presentation on light fastness of proofs (N 859). In tests with two ink sets and several proofing papers, they determined that under office conditions CIELAB colour differences increased in some cases severely. He
Page 5 of ISO/TC130/WG3 N 867 recommended an expiration date on proofs. The committee discussed compatibility of inks and papers. Mr. Kraushaar commented that using paper, which did not undergone the permanence s test stipulated in ISO 12647-7 (and in addition contain a certain amount of optical brightener agents OBA), it is no surprise. Users asking for those criteria (quality) are recommend to select combinations that have been tested according to criteria of ISO 12647-7. Action item 09/18: Thongpetch and Mortara to draft a practical testing procedure for light fading to be used as potential input for 12647-7. Mr. Lanat gave a presentation concerning colour measurements issues (N 856). He outlined that ISO 13655:2009 is not appropriate to specify paper. Standards used in the paper industry such as ISO 5631-2 (Determination of colour by diffuse reflectance-part 2: Outdoor daylight conditions (D65/10 )) should be used. In addition he stressed a more appropriate method for assessing the light fastness (ISO WD 5630-7 Paper and board -Accelerated ageing Part 7: Exposure to light). He finally informed the group about a new project in WG4 addressing a method to identify the level of OBA between two papers (normally a proofing paper and a production paper). Mr. Kraushaar replied that ISO 13655 is no indented to specify paper. It is more related to colour appearance (where directional illumination is needed instead of diffuse illumination) and paper and colour measurements for grouping of paper and colour management means. 8.5 ISO/NWIP 12647-8, Graphic technology Process control for the manufacture of half-tone colour separation, proofs and production prints Part 8: Validation print processes working directly from digital data Mr. Kraushaar gave a presentation on the history of the document and explained the problem that occurred during the NWIP-ballot. There have been technically two ballots one for the NWIP and another for the stage of the attached document. ISO regulations ask for the second ballot to offer the national bodies the possibility to vote (among others) for a working draft (WD) a committee draft (CD) or a DIS. This was not provided. Since the US delegation would like to have the document at a WD level a discussion with the ISO secretariat was held in order to resolve that issue in order to not repeat the ballot. The outcome of the discussion (with ISO and within the group) was to have a straw poll among the experts to draft a plenary resolution to accept the document as a Working draft (N 849). The committee drafted a resolution for the plenary. TC130 resolves that the interpretation of the ballot of ISO 12647-8 (TC 130 N 1472) is that the NWI is approved and the accompanying draft is approved as a Working Draft (Stage 20). After this Mr. Warter reviewed the comments. Mr. Revie presented the history (N 857) of that standard and stressed the fact that the industry is expecting that this standard moves on. Ms. Brunner voiced concerns about misrepresentation between the two standards. After much discussion the intent and application of the standard were clarified. The French comments concerning the usage of D65 for colour measurements were debated controversial. It was discussed that different means that intent to define and address the same goal (in a better way) must be backed up by a substantial study incorporating typical graphic arts material before those methods are subject for an inclusion.
Page 6 of ISO/TC130/WG3 N 867 All comments up to Nr. 45 could be resolved. Due to time restrictions the following path forward was established: 1 Distribute editors proposed resolution of comments 2 Create editing committee (Warter, Kraushaar, Ito, degroot, Leutkens, McDowell, Asseiceiro, Lanat, Revie, Paul, Thongpetch, Brunner, Mortara) that works on the resolving of the remaining comments. 3 Distribute revised proposed resolution of comments as recommended by editing committee and the document that reflects them (where the differences are highlighted). 4 30-day review period during which any WG3 expert can comment 5 The Editing committee responds to any objections and circulates the revises documents (if needed) 7 (if needed) a 30-day review period during which WG3 Experts can comment 8. Send the resulting document to ISO for ballot as CD. A second resolution to accept the recommendation of the sub committee to go to ballot for CD was not found to be needed. Based on the discussion the following action items have been created. Action item 09/19: Kraushaar and de Groot to test the proposed mechanical stabilization technique ( Pruefbau method ) and determine if a replacement of the present method in Annex A is appropriate. Action item 09/20: Kraushaar and Lanat to apply the recommended light fastness test and compare it to the existing method (ISO 12040). 8.6 ISO 12647-4, Graphic technology -- Process control for the production of half-tone colour separations, proofs and production prints Part 4: Publication gravure printing Mr. McDowell suggested a Plenary resolution not to re-confirm 12647-4 but to start a revision and ask for the longest time period of four years. The committee agreed to the resolution. 8.7 ISO 12647-6:2006 - Flexographic printing This standard CD is presently out for review and no action was possible. The editor will receive the comments, consolidate the comments, and prepare a proposed revised resolution of comments at the next meeting. 8.8 ISO 12647-1/2/3 Graphic technology Process control for the manufacture of half-tone colour separation, proofs and production prints Based on the introduction of the proposed revision of ISO 12647-1/2/3 presented by Mr. Meinecke at the last meeting (N 798), Mr. Kraushaar presented the concept (N 843), while he highlighted the six main pillars. This is the result of the last meeting where the group decided/discussed to proceed with that revision as a preliminary work item to change/update ISO 12647-1/2/3 in the short term. Those aspects ware: the new role of the proof (1), the role of grey reproduction (2), the measurement conditions (3) and the colour difference formulae to be used (4). Aspects linked to part 2 (offset lithography) and 3 (news printing) are: the role
Page 7 of ISO/TC130/WG3 N 867 of the paper (5) and new aim values for solid coloration and tonal response curves (6). After a brief discussion about the underlying studies Mr. Kraushaar offered to provide a list with studies that justifies the changes for the revisions. Action item 09/21: Mr. Kraushaar to provide URL s for the Fogra studies that support his proposal on all parts of 12647. Mr. McDowell insisted to start the discussion after the two planed presentations namely his document about a process agnostic standard (N 847) and a presentation by Mr. Lanat Proof to Print evaluation (N 861). Mr. McDowell gave a presentation on his proposal for a process agnostic approach by highlighting text passages of the document N 847. He assumes that data preparation can be largely process agnostic and that choice of the printing process or processes to be used for final production will be based primarily on run length requirements and substrates to be used. Each of the major printing processes have unique limitations that could be covered in individual Annexes. He further outlined that there are a variety of tools in place to both define the relationship of digital data to printed colour for specific instances of printing (characterization data) and to manipulate data, such that common results can be obtained between and among different printing processes defined by different gamuts. Mr. Kraushaar commented that this contradicts a process standard that (as specified in ISO/IEC Guide 2:2004 EN 45020) specifies requirements to be fulfilled by a product or a group of products, to establish its fitness for purpose. It is more a product or an interface standard that just defined the requirements of a printed matter. Mr. Kraushaar further criticized that the printer is not helped by such general guidelines that has no background justification or practical examples that proof that concept. It therefore represents a vision rather a concrete path format. Mr. McDowell commented that this approach represents a totally different concept that what is in ISO 12647-2 today. Mr. Revie asked whether the proposed TVI curves of the planed revision are in synch with the activities of the Paperdam group. Mr. Hossli stated that this is not the case and that he likes the process agnostic approach very much. Ms. Brunner raised the point of differentiating data sets by process ability. Most of the comments were in favor of the agnostic approach as a vision to proceed in the working group. Mr. Kraushaar pointed out that we will still require a connection of this goal to proper process controls on the various implementations. McDowell pointed out that there is a need to normalize cross media applications which will also have to be controlled. He listed the various categories that need to be addressed. Mr. Lanat gave a presentation on how paper would fit into a revision of 12647 (N 861). This group represents more than 50 percent of paper companies worldwide. The topics did partially overlap with the preceding presentation. New aspects were a presentation by different gamuts (plots of the solid coloration projected onto the CIEa*b* plane) to be achieved by different papers and processes and that the paper manufacturers won t associate a dot gain (or TVI) with a paper by itself, knowing that there is a substantial relationship.
Page 8 of ISO/TC130/WG3 N 867 Mr. Gustavo asked whether the members of the Paperdam group consider directional measurement geometries. Mr. Lanat answered that this is not the case. Mr. McDowell questioned if this could be generalized to comparing all papers. After a heated debate about the path forward four options have been identified. In order to determine the feeling of the group a straw poll was held. The four different options were: A. Start work on replacement of ISO 12647 series (N 847) as a NEW document for long term. B. Revise existing ISO 12647 parts 1, 2 and 3 to accommodate near term needs (N 843) C. Start work on replacement of ISO 12647 series as a NEW document for long term and Revise existing ISO 12647 parts 1, 2, and 3 to accommodate near term needs D. Start work on replacement of ISO 12647 series as a NEW document for long term and prepare a TR to supplement existing ISO 12647 After much discussion and lunch, the committee voted path D. One expert voted for option B and one for option C. The main rational behind that report is to reduce confusion by explaining the needed revisions in 12647-2. In order to start a technical report, which by definition can t contain any requirements, the following action item was created. Action item 09/22: Revie and Green to coordinate and collect information from the committee as to input toward the Technical Report describing the status of 12647-1/2/3. 8.9 Discussion about a new digital production standard Mr. Kraushaar led a discussion on a digital production standard. He recalled the activities of this WG of the original scope of ISO 12647-7 (N 803) and stressed the demands from the industry towards TC130 to start work on requirements for digital production printing. Based on work done already by the Fogra digital printing working group Mr. Kraushaar presented some information that outlines the plethora of opinions and definitions people connect with the phrase production print. He said that it is very important to agree on a potential scope or uses cases rather to allow for anything, which is implied when speaking about process agnostic standardization. Mr. McDowell tied this to the process agnostic effort and Mr. Mortara suggested process ecumenical. The group agreed to differentiate the efforts from officeoriented-standards (organized by JTC1 SC28) since higher image and product quality levels are needed. In order to accommodate the expressed needs the following action item was created: Action item 09/23: Kraushaar to develop a resolution to start a preliminary new work item (stage 0) to start work on a digital printing standard focusing on production printing. (Tentative title: Graphic Technology - Requirements for printed matter utilizing digital printing technologies for commercial and industrial production).
Page 9 of ISO/TC130/WG3 N 867 Related to that that action item Mr. Warter volunteered to submit a document by IDEAlliance covering certification requirements for digital production printing as input (N 863). 9 Supporting Activities, TG, task force 9..1 Certification Task force (ISO 12647) Mr. Kraushaar quickly reported about the different ISO 12647-2 certification schemas and the responses from the market to harmonize among them. Mr. degroot, head of the related group within Intergraf, led the discussion. A discussion should be started after all four presentations. He began his presentation termed ISO 12647 certification scheme in the Netherlands (N 862). After that Mr. Takita gave a presentation Progress report on Japan Color Certification (N 845). He reviewed requirements for materials and process. Mr. Lindström gave a presentation on the Swedish certification schema (N 852) termed CGP - Swedish ISO 12647-2 certification. Ms. Brunner gave a presentation titled update of ISO 12647 certification in the UK (N 864). There is a printing standards network (ESN) involving various European countries. The committee addressed the topic of national accreditation bodies. The Netherlands government had rejected 12647-2 certification due to lack of traceability of measurement. They were referred to the International Accreditation Body and ISO 9001. Mr. Cheydleur commented that most instruments are traceable but not from a user point of view. The problem is that graphic arts measurements are not accurately traceable with the usual methods. In other words a good traceability with respect to ceramic tiles don t necessarily relate to a good traceability of graphic arts paper. Ms. He of the Chinese delegation reported that certification in China is just being considered and they will be guided partly by the Hong Kong experience. Since all schemas make more or less use of ISO 9001 document management systems Ms. Pelaprat (Technical Programme Manager, ISO Central Secretariat) commented that any management system standard effort must go along with the ISO Technical Management Board (TMB) using ISO/IEC Guide 72 and projects has to be decided at the TC 130 committee level. The group discussed to create a task force for a working group to discuss and work on an international certification program. Action item 09/24: de Groot to create and chair a task group to explore steps and procedures for setting up ISO based international certification procedures. Members should contact him directly. 9.2 Characterization/Categorization of papers (ISO 12647) Mr. Berthold reported that there have been no developments. He commented that here is no direct overlap with the Paperdam group.
Page 10 of ISO/TC130/WG3 N 867 10 Liaison matters 10.1 ISO/TC42/JWG 21 (ISO 5 series) Mr. McDowell reported that the action has been completed. 10.2 ISO/TC42/JWG 24 (ISO 3664:2009-04) Mr. McDowell reported that the action has been completed. 10.3 ISO/TC130/JWG 8 (ISO 13655:2009) Mr. McDowell reported that the action has been completed. 11 Summary of Beijing action items No. Docum. Who? What? c, o 08/19 ISO 12647-6 Smiley, Kraushaar To spec out colour tolerances (allowing for chroma/hue angle variances) for the colour definitions on flexo printing solid coloration tolerances 08/23 ISO 12647-2 Warter, Hossli, Meinecke To Compare the LWC press runs (ECI) with SWOP3 char.-data 08/24 ISO 12647-2 Warter To analyse FOGRA40, 41 and SWOP5 with respect to (future) ISO paper type 09/09 ISO 12647-7 Bohan Compare the 12647-7 rub test to other tests available in the U.S. 09/13 ISO 12647-4, 2846-3 Meinecke, Bertholdt Supply the ink and gamut data for the new proposed gamut 2 data for revisions to 12647-4 and 2846-3 to WG3 and WG 4 09/16 ISO 12647-7&8 McDowell, Cheydleur Develop a method by which tolerances could be specified that minimized the contribution of interinstrument agreement in colour measurements to allow tighter tolerances for 12647-7 and 8 09/17 ISO 12647-7&8 Warter, Revie Develop a proposal for changes to 12647-7 based on McDowell s and Cheydleur s recommendations and input from the committee to further differentiate it from 12647-8. O O, Printing conditions have been published. O O O O O 09/18 ISO 12647-7 Thongpetch, Mortara to draft a practical testing procedure for light fading to be used as potential input for 12647-7. 09/19 ISO 12647-8 Kraushaar, de Groot to test the proposed mechanical stabilization technique ( Pruefbau method ) and determine if a replacement of the present method in Annex A is appropriate. O O
Page 11 of ISO/TC130/WG3 N 867 09/20 ISO 12647-8 Kraushaar to apply the recommended light fastness test and compare it to the existing method (ISO 12040). O 09/21 ISO 12647 Kraushaar Provide URL s for the Fogra studies that support his proposal on all parts of 12647. O 09/22 ISO 12647-1/2/3 Green, Revie Coordinate and collect information from the committee as to input toward the Technical Report describing the status of 12647-1/2/3. O 09/23 Digital Printing Kraushaar to start a preliminary new work item (stage 0) to start work on a digital printing standard focusing on production printing. (Tentative title Graphic Technology: Requirements for printed matter utilizing digital printing technologies for the commercial and industrial production). 09/24 Certification de Groot Create and chair a task group to explore steps and procedures for setting up ISO based international certification procedures 09/23 O 12 Requirements concerning the future meeting The new TF Certification task force requested ½ day. For WG3 two and a half days are required. (This roughly relates to 12647-7/8 (½ day), ISO 12647-1/2/3/4/6 (1 day), 14861 (½ day) and Digital printing and Process agnostic (½ day)). 13 Any other business Mr. Widmer gave a presentation on the need for a post press standard (N 853). He identified many needs and conditions such as folding, binding, cutting, bonding, stitching, and laminating where there are no international standards. The Swiss delegation will propose a NWIP and TC 130 can react. 14 Adjourn Mr. Kraushaar thanked anyone for their input and the Chinese delegation one more time for providing the excellent facilities. He further thanked Mr. Warter for taking the minutes and adjourned the meeting.