TIMECODE NAME Dialogue

TIMECODE NAME Dialogue MUSIC 00.00.01 NARRATOR This is the BBC Academy Podcast, essential listening for the production, journalism and technology broadcast communities, your guide to everything from craft skills to taking your next step in the industry. 00.00.14 Hi and welcome to the BBC Academy Podcast with me Roxy Ebrahim Khan. Today we re finding out how to edit a documentary with two film makers who have worked together in a cutting room as editor and director, they ve made many films for the BBC and other broadcasters in a wide variety of styles and genres, Jacqui Farnham is a producer director who s made films including for Horizon, the Money Programme and Dominic Sandbrooke s The 80s, hey Jacqui. 00.00.39 Hello. 00.00.40 And Sam Billinge is a documentary editor who s worked on BBC Science and Business films with presenters including Brian Cox, Michael Mosley, David Olusoga and Emily Matlis, he s also just written a book about documentary editing. Hi Sam. 00.00.53 SAM Hello. 00.00.54 Sam lets dive straight into the process of editing, how much do you usually know about a film before you arrive on your first day. 00.01.01 SAM Interesting question, not a lot in truth, I may have an idea of the overall subject but I wouldn t usually and I in truth try and avoid learning too much about it because I think its useful as an editor to come to it like an audience, because that s what a large part of the job is, you re interpreting the material you re given and the story and understanding it for the first time like you hope other people watching the programme will. 00.01.28 SAM But I suppose what I would know is the premise of the film and the director, we may have met, we may have had discussions I might have seen an early script but I probably wouldn t go to any great length to interrogate that because it s better to arrive fresh and open minded. And Jacqui, from a director s point of view how do you go about briefing the editor and preparing the rushes then? 00.01.51 Well I think the ideal is that you d have time between shooting and editing to look through all your rushes, to do a paper edit. What s a paper edit? 00.02.03 A paper edit for a programme would be an edit that you ve written down of the interview, the words from the interview that you want to select, plus the voiceover that you want to put in between and the wording for any pieces to camera if you have a presenter. And I would typically try to talk to the editor about what the subject is, obviously and what we ve shot and what we haven t yet shot, because often there s more to shoot when we go into the edit. But also the style of things that we re trying to aspire to or be like. So I m sure Jacqui s really well organised and obviously very easy 1

to work with, but Sam, do you have to be ready to cope when say like the footage isn t well labelled up? 00.02.45 SAM Sure, well editing in a large part, at least in the early stages is about really good organisation, a key part of the job is to know your material extremely well and have it catalogued and systemised in a way that s easy to access and learn that material then sort of commit it to memory by watching it in the process of organising it, so that you can then make the best selections from it and ultimately make the best film. And let s say you re making like a 60 minute documentary, how long does that usually take? 00.03.17 Well it depends on, I mean all these things just depend on budget really, because budget is about time, isn t it and being able to prepare and having time to get yourself organised is all about having time, which is all about having budget. Typically it s about six to seven weeks in a normal edit, if things go well although it can be longer if you re crafting something like a big landmark you d probably take longer on that sort of thing. 00.03.41 SAM Yes like you say budget determines a few things because what it firstly might determine is shooting ratios so you could say how long does it take to make something, well that s an open ended thing because some films they might only shoot 30 hours of material say, to ultimately be cut to an hour, so a 30 to one ratio, you would have to watch that material, you would organise it, you would make the best selections from that. 00.04.05 SAM Now I ve had more than 30 hours for a single two minute scene, for some [wow] bigger budget films where they ve gone off to an island that takes two days to get there and they just shoot the hell out of it and then you know how long does it take to watch 30 hours of material, well I can tell you at least three or four days and then to make the best cut from that you might spend another week. And that s all about budget isn t it? 00.04.27 SAM It is essentially yes. Okay let s talk about a normal edit; can you talk me through briefly, the stages? 00.04.36 SAM Certainly, day one I would arrive with Jacqui, hopefully Jacqui and we would probably have a chat about the film and I would ask some questions about what that film is about and maybe discuss the audience and some things that are going to help me understand the line we ll take through that story so that we can quickly establish what s useful in the material we have and what s not, and then what we d soon start to begin to do would be to view that material, hopefully there s a division of labour there, well I might view most of the material alone but Jacqui would probably have transcripts or some paper logs of the interviews and the other spoken components. 00.05.14 SAM And between us we d structure the film a bit like a radio programme, almost and then over the next sort of three, four, five weeks we would cut to that film together with the picture, music, sound effects, stock footage if necessary an archive and we d put 2

it together in some semblance of the film. It wouldn t be perfect, it might have rough edges, it might have repetition it might be a bit too long, but it would be a working version of the film that we would then be ready to show erm those other outside voices. I was going to say how long does that kind of first assembly or that first edit take? 00.05.53 SAM Around about five weeks personally. Well actually different series producers want to see it at different [true] stages and some have got more of, so for example when I m series producing I am quite happy to look at something that is too long and has black holes in it because I want to know have they got the story right, so some series producers will want to see it at that stage, we might be there at about three weeks, where you ve got like a 70 minute film with lots of black holes but you ve established what you think the story is. 00.06.23 And by black holes I mean you haven t, you know you haven t crafted it so you ve got a story with pieces to camera if you ve got a presenter and some sequences and interviews where you maybe haven t covered everything up. And that you can get to in maybe three weeks and then to go further maybe four or five. 00.06.42 SAM Yes I d say so, if you re thinking of the general model about half the time of that seven or eight weeks is watching the material, crafting a version of the film and the other half is improving it, sharing it with other people that have a voice and getting it to completion. But Jacqui how much freedom do you give the editors? 00.06.59 I think it depends on what you re what stage you re at and what parts of the process you re talking about. So personally, for me, I m very keen to stamp my view of what the story should be, on the film, and work with the editor to say okay what about, because the Editor s coming fresh to it, sometimes they can see things in the story that you never saw or never dreamed of. And that I think is a big part of working together, something that you do together. 00.07.29 But in terms of actually cutting it and cutting the pictures and the music I might have some quite strong views about how that should be done but I wouldn t sit with an editor about doing that, because as far as I m concerned, that s kind of their job, it s my job to find the story to go and shoot the stuff, bring that in and say okay this is the story that I think we re telling and manipulate that and work it out and work out the ending and work out how you see the story. But in terms of cutting it that s what the editor does. 00.08.01 SAM Yes, in a sense to sort of explain how that relationship might work from my experience, its collaborative and you do need to be together for different stages, more or less, while its collaborative you are looking for a division of labour, because you have to crunch through that film, you have a schedule and there s a budget and a deadline ultimately by which it has to be done. So if you were going to speak about that in the most plain terms and there s great overlap, the director would probably busy themselves more initially with the story structure through the spoken material, so interviews, actuality which is recorded events, real life actions, activities, experiments etcetera which have been 3

recorded and commentary, which is the recorded voice. 00.08.52 SAM Which would usually be there to explain the gaps and clarify things which would otherwise be too boring or long winded or unclear to explain through the other two options. And then as the editor, what I would probably do, while Jacqui was busy working out that structure, which she may already have strong ideas about, is to learn the other supporting material, around that, so that would be the pictures that support that story thread told through voices, discovering music and sounds design, sound effects which will help enrich it and then we d come together and we d probably establish the structure for that scene and put the pieces together and what I would normally prefer is just to be left alone to play and discover, because you want to try left field, silly things, I don t really like people sort of editing from the back. 00.09.42 Over your shoulder, yes. 00.09.43 SAM Yes because it just you know you just want to be free and limber to play. It made me laugh. 00.09.47 SAM You know because you discover the best stuff just, you discover the best things like they re often completely from the left field and you know as Jacqui also said, the director will have gone out and shot this stuff and they sort of see what s outside of the frame, they know what it took to get that shot, now I might look at that as the editor, dispassionately, but you know in a caring like way I d like to think and just think that is rubbish, now it s not personal again but you want to have the ability to dismiss stuff because all you have is what is in front of you on the screen. 00.10.19 SAM That s all the audience is ever going to see, not least the audience doesn t know what doesn t make the film, what s on the floor, so you re sort of judging that material like the audience when you first view it and you really need to do that alone. 00.10.30 And the temptation I think as the Director, who s been out shooting it and had, you know the rain come over unexpectedly and the contributor turn up five hours late and then whatever happened you know is to explain endlessly why the shots are not as perfect as you might have hoped they would be. And of course, as you say, that s completely irrelevant, you don t want to know about any of that because all you want to know is what can we put on the screen, what have we got that s going to go into the film. 00.11.12 SAM Good question. We ve talked about making a first assembly and you know further down the line obviously other people are going to have to come and look at it, critique it, what s the best strategy then for a successful viewing? 00.11.12 I think the, for me, what I always think before a view is, if we re happy with it then we re going to be happy with the work we ve done and then if someone comes in and they agree that s great and if they don t we re going to work with what they want to change and do differently, because that s our job, as professionals, that s what we have to do, but not take it personally 4

but I feel very strongly that actually you have to be proud of what you ve done, you have to think this is good regardless of whether or not the next person who comes into the room agrees. 00.11.41 SAM Yes I think that s true, I think if I was thinking of practical things that would help that viewing, I would want that film to be as representative of the finished film as much as possible when they first come to view it and what I mean by that is the story s as straight as it can be, it is cut together as beautifully as it can be, it s got the right music working, the sounds all joined up, it s neat, I like to make it look as perfect as it can be to start with, because often people who come and view these things are somewhat detached from the daily film making process, so I think you really have to give it to them like the finished film, as much as you can. And Jacqui how much scope is there usually to kind of disagree, how much of it is a negotiation? 00.12.28 In terms of disagreeing with the people who are coming in and giving viewings? Yes. 00.12.32 Well I think that s a really good question and I think you have to work out how strongly you feel about something, so there are some things that are absolute deal breakers, if someone comes in and asks you to change a piece of commentary or a piece of sync to say something that s not true or misrepresents a contributor that s an absolute no, you would just say, no, I m not doing that and you would keep saying no. If it s something that you feel passionately about in terms of the tone or the style or part of the way you ve told the story I think it s worth deciding which battles you re going to pick, so if you feel really strongly then yes I think it s really worth arguing for what you want and I will definitely do that. 00.13.22 But then you need to know when to do as you re told and actually I think sometimes you just have to capitulate and do it even if it s not what you wanted to do and this makes it sound like it s all about conflict which actually it isn t a lot of the time but those are the moments where I think you show your metal, where there is conflict and I think you do have to know which battles to fight and which ones to just say okay, that s fine we re going to just do that now. And Sam, what s your role as an Editor in these kind of discussions? Keeping the peace. 00.13.52 SAM I d say so in a sense, I am actively involved and I care for every discussion point in terms of the story or the edit because I m close to that material and I m involved in the story. But my primary allegiance you might say, if you were talking about the conflict element is to back Jacqui up, you know we re the partnership ultimately and we re together for a really long time and so that s the relationship, I m there to defend Jacqui and perhaps help her with the ideas and defend and justify the ideas that she feels are best but also where I disagree I will make my voice heard, but again you pick your battles, you judge what is important because everybody wants to have their voice heard and somehow that film is a reflection of everyone s contributions. 5

You said just then allegiance to the Director? 00.14.43 And it works both ways I think, yes. Let s talk about that Editor and Director relationship then, because it sounds like it can be quite intense the whole you know let s say eight weeks or whatever edit, you know the majority of the time it s just you two in the cutting room, how do you build up that relationship in say like such a small amount of time? 00.15.06 You are thrown together in a room with someone that you may not know at all, and you have to collaborate, and the film making process is personal, as well as professional, you re making subjective decisions, based upon your own feelings and instincts and you re sharing those and hoping that you ll agree. And that between you, you can just collaborate and make something really nice and have a really nice time too, it is just a job, it s something that becomes part of your lifestyle because it s a very personal thing again and it s a bit more interesting and exiting than the average job I d like to think. 00.15.40 SAM But it is essentially a job so you re there to be nice and reasonable and get it done. Wouldn t you say? 00.15.46 Yes I think it s really important to get on and I think the first couple of days, if it s with someone that you don t know then you spend a lot of time talking don t you and talking about the film of course. SAM And sussing each other out. Yes. 00.15.57 SAM And because you don t know there s a varying standard of professionals, there are brilliant directors there are awful directors, there are brilliant editors there are awful editors, and depending how good your partner is determines how much of the weight of that film you re going to personally have to carry. I ve worked on films where the director is completely, brilliantly competent they have marked up transcripts, they ve got a structure that s about a length and really makes sense, they can write a line of commentary in a heartbeat and you just get along seamlessly, you divide the work brilliantly, you just put your two sides of the whole thing together and it works more or less and everyone s happy and you go home at six comfortably. And you know have a lovely night s sleep. 00.16.40 SAM Equally it s not just about inexperience, often it is, but just directors who are less capable and you really have to manage the story, you have to help them write the script and you have to carry the weight of the film and this is something that those outside the room would never know, it s never reflected really in the finished product because all of that process happens in a little room, behind the door, where no one else can see, it s just the two of you together. 00.17.05 SAM So the job of a director and the job of an editor are not completely defined. SAM There s a lot of overlap. Yes. 00.17.13 And there s a lot of complimentary, what you re looking for I think 6

is complementary skills so which bits do I do well, which bits do you do well, which bits will we do well together, and therefore how should we divide and share the labour. I think for me, at the best, you make the material more than the sum of its parts, and visually the Editor, you tell the story, in a way that I couldn t have done it with just words, because its telly right, so that I think is the best way, where you collaboratively tell a story using the words and the pictures and the sound and its all brilliant and at the worst the editor saves the film from, you know if you haven t got the right staff and it s all a headache and it s all a nightmare then that s what you do isn t it, you save it. 00.18.06 SAM Yes well you could say that, sometimes it happens but you probably get the opposite where your editor is so unbearably hopeless, I know a couple, I never have to spend time in a room with them, gratefully, where you must have to really hold their hand through it. Occasionally, occasionally. Let s talk about stuff that both the director and the editor may have strong views about, let s talk about commentary, Jacqui is that mostly your remit as director? 00.18.34 I think it mostly is, the commentary is there to usually to move the story forward and then you get pieces to camera which might be show and tell, what s really great about working with a good editor is that they will come in and say why don t you just change it to say a bit like that. So again that kind of collaborative way of saying okay this is what we need to say but how are we going to say it. 00.18.57 SAM I think that s all true, I think as an editor you also have to be a competent and capable script writer, were Jacqui to go away with her script and write some links between the spoken parts that clarify information, move the story forward all of the things which she s mentioned, I would want, when I listen to that for it to make complete, clear sense and for those thoughts to be short and simple and bite sized and not giving me sort of an overload or too much in any one hit. 00.19.27 SAM So I think the job of the editor on that part is to help regulate the flow of information and clarify where sometimes assumed knowledge comes in, the director s very close often to the story and the information and I m not, so I will often watch something and I ll just say I just don t understand that, what do you mean, do you mean this, oh yes that s exactly what I mean, okay well why don t we just say it like that. 00.19.53 SAM Things which are written down often don t sound like the spoken language and part of that art, which I m not any form of an expert in, is to communicate in a way that s colloquial and casual and neat and short and conversational. 00.20.09 But also there are some times when if you re a certain way through the edit and you re very family by this point with the pictures there can be a point where you can say okay this is what I want to say and you might say but there s some great, I can think of exactly [that s true] the pictures that will work and then you might change the voiceover because together you ve worked out that if you say 7

it a little bit differently you can make it work even better. 00.20.32 SAM It might support the pictures you have better. Exactly. 00.20.45 Joint I would say. SAM So what about like say interviews, who s responsibility is it to kind of pick those or how do you go about finding the best sound bytes? I d say it s joint. 00.20.46 I mean I would expect to do, if you ve got time you get transcripts and I would personally I watch everything even if I have transcripts because I m looking for not just on paper what says what you want to say but how do they say it and like how are they moving their arms and what does their face look like and where the in and out where you can cut in and cut out and make it say, you know get the bit that works. 00.21.10 SAM As Jacqui says so much of the expression in what people are telling you is in their body language and appearance rather than the words themselves, commentary is completely detached, you don t see the person speaking in the finished film and what they say has to be very clear, there is all manner of different information that can be communicated from somebody speaking in vision and it s not just the words. Yes. 00.21.43 It very much depends. 00.21.47 It can be wonderful. SAM Let s kind of bring it forward to the last few days, what are you both doing in those final few days, what s the vibe like? Are you happy because you re getting to the end of it, is it like manic? Just glad to see its done Jacqui. 00.21.51 But it can be wonderful if it s all gone super well and everyone s really please with it and you really feel like you re on top of the world or it can be if it s been difficult it can be just trying to get to the end and of course there are lots of jobs, I mean for the editor, for you there s a whole bunch of stuff that you have to get ready practically for it to go into final post production where they make all the sound right, make all the pictures right. 00.22.19 SAM Yes I think if you re thinking of the practical to do list towards the end of the edit, the script has been fact checked by the researcher to ensure that the information within has integrity and the contributors are fairly represented and everything legal in a sense is completely tight, my job would be one of ensuring the film was to time, that any material which came extraneously into the edit by way of stock footage or archive is clearable, providing a list of music, it might be to be cleared by the BBC or whichever company you re making it for to ensure that they can use it. 00.23.00 SAM And that would essentially be the end, what you may do is just watch the film for any fine, fine little things that stand out that could be a shot, it could be a cut, it could be the particularities of 8

the phrasing of the line of commentary and really you ve just got to put it to bed and just yes, let it go. 00.23.20 On a practical level as a Director as the final few days approach you have to get your script in order and as you said, everything is fact checked because that s the sort of thing that can come back to bite you later if you just put something in and you think it s true, really important to have every fact checked and with an end note saying where you got that information from, because often you ll be off on another project and somebody else will be coming in when the programme actually transmits. 00.23.49 Make sure you ve got a full list of everybody who needs to be informed about the transmission when it happens, make sure all of your captions, your astons for the people are correct and that you ve checked them with the people so you know that that s what, that s how they want to be described. And make sure you ve got a full list of credits on the end of the film so that everybody who s worked on the film is reflected in that. 00.24.08 And once you ve done all that and the film is as you want it to be and as you say it s never perfect but when you ve got to a point where you feel this is something that we can all be proud of you know that s a great feeling and there s often a great deal of relief but also happiness. Guys thank you so much for joining me today to talk about the whole editing process, thank you to Jacqui Farnham and Sam Billinge, Sam s book is called The Practical Guide to Documentary Editing, you can find out more about editing on the BBC Academy Website and BBC staff will find a range of courses on editing if you ve been inspired to try your hand, please follow us on Twitter or Facebook, we re at BBC Academy, again thanks for listening, from me, Roxy Ebrahim Khan. 00.24.50 NARRATOR You ve been listening to the BBC Academy Podcast, if you want to find out more about this topic or to hear previous shows, search online for the BBC Academy. 00.24.58 MUSIC 00.25.03 END OF RECORDING 9