SL Bass player (12 th April 2007 Greenwich, London) 3.20 MD Can you tell me about time keeping is that something that you have consciously worked on as a player? And if you have, in what ways have you worked on your time keeping? 3.56 SL Erm I suppose I m doing that all the time really, especially as a bass player. I think it s one of my primary duties is to make sure that the music feels good, it s grooving, it s in time; it s not slowing down speeding up whatever and to keep it feeling right, to keep it swinging. So I suppose when I play I m always conscious of, how s my time, does that work within the group, does it feel good, does it sound good? and if not I ll try and hang back or I ll try and push ahead. 4.44 MD Can I ask you on the gig, are you still quite engaged quite consciously about how things are feeling? 5.01 SL Erm yeah yeah, I think, that s that s the most important thing about what I m doing. It s, it s in time and it s keeping good time as well, as well as keeping time. But, you know actually making it swing 5.17 MD So can you say some more about what is good time, keeping good time? 5.32 SL It s for me it s not letting anything go, it s not letting the music drop at any time. Erm it s very hard, I think when it s it all depends on who you re playing with as well, so you kind of have to marry everyone s own personal sense of time, into a group feel that works and (inaudible) something and feels good you know. So if I m playing with a drummer who, who plays quite behind, on the beat I ll compensate. To kind of, to kind of keep, keep the mean, sort of thing in the right pocket. 6.21 MD And are you aware of that on the gig or is it something that happens below your consciousness? 6.41 SL Yeah it s most, it s mostly a subconscious thing, I mean, you know, from the downbeat, you know, even a really fast tune - if in the first two or three beats it the time doesn t feel natural I ll kind of try and move to where I think it should be. Umm, and if it gets to the stage where that s been going on for a while, in my experience if you can t iron it out, within the first section or something it s usually because you re usually not going to; it s not like you can play three chords and suddenly it ll all just gel and everything will work from then on in. 7.39 MD And when you say like the first few beats almost, you can feel, do you have an image in your head of what you re doing to come to that accommodation? 8.09 SL I don t know, I don t think so erm, maybe I try and avoid visual imagery because I m trying to purely concentrate on the ears and just, and let them dictate what happens. I ll just hear it as something, I ll hear it as perhaps a shape that s not quite fully formed and, and I ll try and let my ears lead me.. 8.45 MD Yeah, that s interesting and how have you got to that point or have you always had that? 9.12 SL I haven t always had that. Before coming to college I d been playing bass two or three years and I hadn t I hadn t really played jazz in an ensemble. I d done a couple of summer schools at the Guildhall, so a week or so playing with other jazz musicians. Also I d been in a gypsy jazz band which is still time keeping, that s, that s very strict you know - you ve got to really push that along. But it s not, it s not that level of freedom with melody, harmony, rhythm so it s really since coming to college that I ve learnt on the job almost and I think the way I ve got to that is just purely by listening and focusing on time keeping. I think, you know, you can have players who ll have been playing with jazz musicians a lot longer than I have, but then they re time keeping might not be out there they might be working on something else, or they might just not listen as much. 10.21 MD When you say listen, just imagine we re on a gig is that listening primarily to you or can you not distinguish; it s just listening to the sound or is it just listening to the
drummer or what? 10.37 SL You almost have to learn to listen to everything and to the whole and some of its parts. First comes the music - the overall sound of the band that s what everyone should be listening to and if something s not right you re going to be able to hear that. The next step is to go okay, why doesn t that sound right? you can use your ears to almost pinpoint where in the, in the range [it s not working]. It might be the piano high frequency could be the high hat or the cymbals. So I do it like that. 11.30 MD I m still interested in this idea of focusing on the time. How are you doing that focusing on the time? 12.05 SL It s just when it feels I suppose I m just trying to get it to the stage where it feels so right, that you can t do anything to shake it. I mean, it s having that strength about it, without being overbearing. Because I could you know, you can really hammer it out you know, you re almost a week ahead of the piano player and keep it right there throughout the whole tune, and that s great for certain certain tempos and then, medium to fast tempos I d think just try and be there be there with it and if anything tries to fall by the wayside then I ll try and move and catch it. So it s just kind of hanging back and listening and keeping a watchful eye or a watchful ear however. But trying to get it to the stage where it feels rock solid and you can respond; because once you get there, I feel I can take extreme liberties - which you wouldn t be able to do if the time didn t feel so strong you know. And you just feel that it s not going to go anywhere and it doesn t go anywhere, and it s not going to go anywhere no matter what you do to it. 13.33 MD And what might the liberties be? Is that with you pushing against the time or pulling back? 13.41 SL Perhaps within the same bar, or within the same section 13.46 MD And again is that is that something that you are going to have thought about and it will happen or is it something that happens without you being too aware of it? 14.08 SL I think it can be both, often it s conscious, I think it s to add colour or to highlight something else that something that someone else is doing but sometimes I find it will just happen because that s where I think the music wants to go, or that s where I d like to take the music in that particular section. So, you know, if any other musician in a band does something to trigger that feel, I ll just kind of jump a bit without thinking about it too much on playing There is no greater love Okay, let s move onto There Is No Greater Love So this is There Is No 53.17 MD Greater Love [ interviewee listens to the whole song] Anything that grabs you about that? 54.34 SL It s all coming from the saxophonist, for me.you know, those screaming notes there s only one thing we can do you know, is to really get in there and try and support him, so I m dropping right down to the bread and butter end of the bass and just trying to get that big sound out to give this sort of giant spectrum of music you know, with very solid grounding and he s bringing all sorts of things out of TS (the drummer) you know but again because of the tempo and where it is, and I m bringing out that big bass sound I ve got the time you know, there are times where TS is not being cavalier with the time but playing with it. 55.30 MD It sounds great. Yeah yeah I mean maybe that s sort of what you were saying earlier that the time, you know, it feels as though there s a really nice solid groove going on there 56.34 SL Yeah yeah I think you know, it s part of the main flow TS and I having played together so long you know five years ago he used to do stuff like that and I d, I wouldn t know [what he was doing]. But I can, you know, and he not taught me but I suppose showed me how I could play through it. He said trust me I ve got it
and then we built that up so now it s got past the stage where we can play like that and he can give whatever he likes, almost and I ll, you know, I ll be with it. SC pianist (12 th April 2007 Greenwich, London) 11.30 MD And can you say more about what groove is? 11.50 SC It constantly has the feeling of forward motion, it s very forward, its quite edgy it can be pushy but it doesn t speed up. 13.40 MD What is it about playing together that s pleasurable being in time together really. 13.51 SC Well, ((laughs)) I think that s the one thing that you can t really put into words. I sort of always relate it that s the closest thing that I can come to - religious [experience] The feeling I reckon people who are religious have, is that kind of transcending erm, human relationships there s, there s something abstract and something other about connecting with somebody else and a few other people at the same time. It is unbelievably powerful and you don t get that feeling anywhere else except for maybe sex I suppose! ((laughs)) That s the only other But I think that s the thing that people get when they re religious, that connection that they have with other people that believe of this higher power for me the higher power is the music and that connection that you can have with somebody. So when you lock in with somebody, two other people who are playing on just one concept like 4 and you re both all three of you are connecting on that thing it s like, you know, you can t I can t put that into words it s just, it s just an experience you know that you can t. People don t know unless they ve done it or experienced it. I mean I think you can experience it The best gigs you see are when you feel like you re part of that as well, and you feel a connection with the band and other people in the room like you ve shared the experience, - the room, that particular night, everything just sort of vibrates in the perfect in harmony you know. So I suppose it s the one thing I can t really, can t 16.28 MD Are we talking about group feeling in a way? 16.35 SC I guess so yeah, I mean jazz champions a soloist, individual soloist but it s much more than that when it s that plus locking in, I mean I sort of prefer comping than I do soloing ((laughs)) because I just love, I love drummers ((laughs)) I love rhythm sections you know if you can sort of add to that you know Bill Evans, the comping on So What ; although Miles is playing one of the most famous and incredible pieces of music ever made, what Bill Evans is doing behind him is just equally brilliant brilliant, it s absolutely sublime you know, placement and the groove so I don t know. 20.06 MD 20.40 SC Have you experienced the feeling of working well at grooving with people that you don t really get on with? For me it s like socialising and talking and creating something with somebody because you re composing on the spot and if you were composing not on the spot you d want to have a relationship with somebody where it was positive and continually moving forward; rather than there being blocks because of erm personal issues or ego or It s just the same when you re talking to somebody you know if they re talking a whole lot of shit that you don t agree with then the conversation doesn t I mean you can, at the same time you can disagree
with somebody while you re talking to them and have quite a progressive discussion about something but again that s like, that s still quite positive because all they might disagree on is still there s no ego in the way. That s the thing really, it s when, when the ego gets in the way, it s very hard to I ve made, I feel like I ve made great music with T and S at times, but at other times it s been horrible and the main thing has been the vibe between us that s when it makes it not work, it s nothing to do with the actual music. I mean it s nothing to do with the technicalities of music. 25.44 MD 26.12 SC Can you say how conscious you are of groove you know, it happening or not in performance. Is it something that you re sort of actively working towards when you re playing? It depends on, for me locking in with, with other people, with the rhythm section, with the other people on the band stand. Like last week, playing with DS (drums) and PD (bass), it s just a pleasure their groove is so strong and you feel like you could fit in so easily, it just feels so good immediately, and yet you don t have to try too hard, it just kind of works. I mean I d be interested to know how they felt about the gig, I know they said they enjoyed it, I mean these are incredibly sophisticated musicians and they always love, you know they always say they enjoy it. on playing There is no greater love The energy for the second set you know it all, it all depends on what comes before so like, in this instance Blue in Green came off really beautifully and it was very concentrated and there was great feeling afterwards of that it was this completed thing, a very nice, tidy performance. So then to go into a tune like There Is No Greater Love, that we all know very well, great tempo, easy tempo, was just a good, you know, link. I mean often that s the hardest thing in a gig, you know the 32.21 SC solo after the one before, you know, how do you make a new shape it s just all design, it s all in the design; you know the tune, the set, the whole gig, an album, a tour. You know Jarrett is an absolute master at gigs the gigs sort of go like this, by the end it s reached sort of - fever pitch, it s beautiful design, and every solo and then the whole gig, has this incredible design. So like you might do a gig and a couple of tunes will be really great and overall it was pretty good, but sometimes you do it when you hit it just right you know, this perfect thing to follow it, you know you suss out how the audience hears the vibe and the rhythm 33.46 MD I just want to go to the transition point where you change from being an accompanist to soloist and your thoughts on that, because I thought that was quite interesting and I thought it s got this sort of strong groove throughout, but T (the drummer) starts breaking it up and you know, there s more stuff going on, and then suddenly at the beginning of your solo it goes right down to a very spare groove so I just was thinking about that. ((plays music)) 35.19 SC ((laughs)) Still feel like I play too much you know, sometimes 35.24 MD Any thoughts about that I guess I m just taking you back to that how it changes for you in terms of your job; are you more involved as being a rhythm section person when you re accompanying as to when you re a soloist or does that not change that commitment to groove, or is your job different? 36.02 SC It definitely changes the feeling becomes it sort of feels like it becomes a lot more concentrated when you re soloing because you re because of that thing as if you re putting an argument across in a very articulated way, and I m interjecting with yes I agree with you, that s an easier job for me; it s easy for me to sort of say yeah, yeah, yeah but then when it s you having to make that statement, it just becomes a lot more concentrated; so your groove, the groove has to be stronger. A
lot of the time I feel like I play too much right at the beginning, because people switch off a little bit the more you play you want sort of more bite sized phrases especially at the beginning because then you can engage them and draw them in and then you ve got them. I think if you play too much constant, with not enough breathing space, I think people tend to turn off a little bit and that s one of my biggest mistakes I think. Because it does always come right down and that is quite an intense thing you know, it s very focused, and at that point you really sort of have to remind yourself, just let it happen and not force anything and more often than not I feel like I force it when I listen back, I think oh you re just trying way too hard TS Drummer (12 th April 2007 Greenwich, London) 24.14 MD What about time how have you developed your time individually over the last however many years if you have worked on it? 24.33 TS I ve sat down with a metronome, and I ve worked on my time by a number of different things sitting down with a metronome, having it on all four beats; and listening to my ride cymbal not matching up with the beat. The quality of sounds at different tempos because I feel if I can t really play a tempo, the true sound doesn t come. 25.16 MD When you say the true sound do you mean the quality, the timbre? 25.20 TS Yeah, and the volume everything, absolutely everything. If I m not making a tempo, the sound, you can really hear just from the sound I m creating. So I sat down with the metronome and did 1, 2, 3, 4 I also sat down with the metronome and did just 2 and 4 really, really good man. Just because then you have to really before you know it, you don t think too much, you don t it s not about you re worried about the space, you use the space, the space actually helps you because the space then becomes the essential part to your time, rather than the thing that you re playing. So I did that, but I realised, when I was playing Brazilian music I had always been really, really inspired by dancers I think the way that the human body moves is just incredible I really, really do, and that kind of expression, that kind of, that expression has something, something just comes in and you know, makes you want to dance. So I watched a lot of dancers, and did a bit of dancing myself really important to get that 29.06 MD And how do you feel about your time now, all modesty aside, just a critical, analytical assessment of where your time is now say maybe compared to five years ago or something. 29.22 TS Five years ago it s more considered. ((laughs)) It s more considered, man. 29.29 MD What do you mean by that? 29.32 TS Because I think when you start playing, you have a really kind of what, I don t know I was lucky enough to have, not a good sense of time, but you know what I mean if someone went 1 2 3 4, I d go okay, you re speeding up, and if I was counting something in, it would just be the correct thing to do to go 1 ((clicks)) 2 ((clicks)) 1 ((clicks)) 2, 3 ((clicks)) 4 So it was just obvious to me, without sounding pretentious. Erm, but I know when my time not all the time while I m playing but I know that my time isn t necessarily consistent, and it s not consistent in some of the recordings, I mean it s alright, it s not really bad. I know when things that can affect my time if I start feeling boxed in, then I start pushing a bit.
30.33 MD Say more on what boxed in means. 30.36 TS Boxed in is like if someone s playing the same rhythmic phrase all the time with a push, there s like an anticipation and it s not being played really well, it ends up creating for me like a type of energy which is boxed in and that s when I start to push you know, the time, you know, I ll never take that for granted it s just kind of like I think time is where you share it about in the band as well, it s like different people take on different roles you know, sometimes there is a closeness, like I have a real closeness with SL and we ve played together a lot, but we slip into certain things sometimes you know, comfortable tempos for each other and things like that to be honest with you, in a musical situation, I m with the bass player, I m in there every time because you know what man, that accommodates everybody and brings everybody in, and we go from there, it s not about being on stage 39.44 MD 40.28 TS How do you see yourself if you do in terms of where you sit in relation to a notional beat? I mean, you know, the part of the vocabulary players use about themselves you know, I like to push or I like to lay back (inaudible). But do you have a sense of where you like to be yourself? Is that something you can, that you recognise? I don t play on one place in relation to the beat It s much wider, and this can be dictated by things like tempo, or something that s going on inside of the music, maybe if there s some hits or there s a riff to a sort of rhythmic grouping those are the things that dictate to me whereabouts on the beat I play. So if I m playing a fast tempo, I ll probably be right on the middle of the beat right in the centre or, right up on the beat. But it also depends on the bass player you re playing with right, because SL really likes to get in and really slant forward especially on the fast tempos so that allows me to be central and maybe if he s really pushing, it s my job to kind of like, complement that, but not show the opposite. So it s many, many things, but it s all to do with what s happening in the music it s very rare though that I ll play really behind the beat on a fast tempo 41.54 MD And what about other tempos? 41.55 TS For slow tempos, but also it s dictated to different tempos, it s not trying to be like an imitator here at all, but like, you know you might relate to something and you know say if you re playing like a, say you re playing a 3/4 ((clicks beat, sings tune)) I just think a wider triplet, in that particular instance; I think a wider triplet sound. You know, whereas if I m playing a fast tune I can t fit all those triplets in, so I got to think a more kind of Tony (Williams), or like Roy (Haynes). 42.45 MD Yeah, sort of sharper 42.48 TS Yeah, a bit straighter almost. 42.55 MD 44.01 TS 46.42 MD And how aware of are you of all this stuff, of all these different accommodations that are going on? Is this something that, you know, like sometimes on a gig you will consciously think yeah I wanna go to that time feel if you like or is it just stuff that s just going to come out in the same way as your left hand is doing stuff without you doing it? How where s the consciousness in this? Is it unconscious or deliberate? That s quite a hard question for me to answer, because it really is a bit of both actually. Sometimes I really feel like I am watching myself play the drums and I m not doing anything but it s all going on, and sometimes I feel but that s generally when I m reacting to something and sometimes obviously I m thinking right okay, here s that phrase, maybe the music s maybe it needs some kind of, maybe it needs something in there. That s when I m imposing, I m making a choice, imposing what I feel I should do with the music. We ve just been talking the way you approach time feel in different situations. How does it work in the trio with the three of you? Do you have a sense of the, sort of,
almost architectural space, or a space in which the three of you are? 47.34 TS Well I know what you re saying. I try and make the bass the central thing. The bass is like the centre, not in relation to where he plays on the beat, but in relation to the music you ve got that really strong four beats that s being played through the bar 48.12 MD So do you orientate yourself in relation to that? 48.13 TS Erm, I hope that there s a whoever s counted the tune in, we re in the same space there from the count in. 48.26 MD But I was talking about this with SL (bassist), we just talked briefly about where the beat is you know, what are you all playing off ((laughs)) and so, maybe from what you ve just said there, it s like the idea that you re right it s the count in that is establishing in your head this sort of beat up there or something, and that s where 48.51 TS Yeah, and the melody and the music what we re about to play that s what dictates it more than anything. There s not a set, there s not a set thing there s too many variables coming in beside that but generally the bass is like the anchor, and I need to know that I can play into the bass really play into the bass you know, and play around it, and really go in front of it, and hang off it, link with it when I need to