Uncorrected Transcript of. Interviews. with. VIOLA SMITH MITZ 6 February and WILLIAM HENRY HOLDEN by James Eddie McCoy, Jr.

@66 Uncorrected Transcript of Interviews with VIOLA SMITH MITZ 6 February 1996 and WILLIAM HENRY HOLDEN 1997 ' by by James Eddie McCoy, Jr. Transcribed by Lauren Miller The Southern Oral History Program The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Original transcription on deposit at The Southern Historical Collection Louis Round Wilson Library Citation of this interview should be as follows: "Southern Oral History Program Collection in the Southern Historical Collection, Manuscripts Department, Wilson Library, The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill' Copyright 2000 The University of North Carolina

[START OF SIDE A] VIOLA SMITH MITZ 6 February 1996 JAMES EDDIE MCCOY: One-o-nine, Old Baker Street. Today's date is February the 6 th, 1996. I'm visiting with Mrs. Viola Smith Mitz. Ms. Mitz, what is your, your address and today's date? VIOLA SMITH MITZ: My address is Post Office Box 385 Oxford, North Carolina. EM: And your house address? VM: My house address is one-o-nine, Old Baker Street, Oxford. EM: Today's date? VM: February the sixth, 1996. EM: Give me your whole name. VM: Viola Smith Mitz. EM: Okay, your, date you was born in, your age? VM: I was born September the 26 th, 19 and 19. EM: You were born September the 26 th? VM: 26, uh-huh. 19 and 19. EM: So, how old are you now? VM: I'm seventy-six years old. EM: Okay, where, what area were you born in? When you came up as a kid? VM: North Granville. EM: Okay, what is North Granville? VM: I'm from Cornwall. EM: Okay, did you come up on a farm, or? VM: Yes, I did.

MITZ, VIOLA SMITH 2 EM: Um, did y'all, your parents, sharecrop for somebody, or y'all had your own farm? VM: He worked half, what you call that? That sharecropping? He worked, what he pay, the white man get one half, he get the other half. EM: Uh-huh. VM: That's half, half share. EM: How many sisters and brothers was there to y'all? VM: It was two brothers, EM: Mm-hm. Okay, you gave me the two boys, what was the- VM: Yeah, but it's three boys. EM: Okay, what's their name? VM: Grover Lee. EM: Uh-huh. VM: James Early. EM: Mm-hm. VM: William Thomas. EM: Uh-huh. Girls now. VM: Six, wait a minute, six girls. EM: Okay. What's their name? VM: Amy Smith. EM: Uh-huh. VM: Mary Smith. Mary. EM: Mary, okay.

MITZ, VIOLA SMITH 3 EM: Um. VM: Pearl Smith. EM: Uh-huh. VM: Viola Smith. EM: Uh-huh. VM: Francis Smith. EM: Mm-hm. VM: And Mary E. Smith. Mary E. Smith. Mary [???] Smith. Two Marys. EM: Okay, um, what, was you the, what child were you in there, were you the, about the third child or the fourth child or the fifth? VM: I was the fifth. EM: You was the fifth? VM: Yeah. EM: The boys was older than, all three of the boys? VM: No, two boys were older than me. EM: Two boys was older than you? VM: Grover the oldest, I called them after age come down. EM: Uh-huh, okay. EM: So, you had it kinda rough, didn't you? VM: I had it easy, then. They all done spoiled me. EM: They did?? VM: Yeah, I was the spoiled, I was spoiled in the baby in the family.

MITZ, VIOLA SMITH 4 EM: (Laughs). VM: Two babies, but I was the baby of the first baby then the next baby. EM: Oh, okay, so, you, you, you knew how to look out for yourself, didn't you? (Laughs). VM: I sure did. (Laughs). EM: Um, let's talk about the thing you do, everybody, you knew what you were going to do when Sunday come, don't ya? VM: We went to church. EM: That, automatically. EM: That's right. That's one thing when I interview people, black people always, are like I said, you knew what you did on Sunday. EM: I, no one explained now, to me about cooking, what you don't do on Sunday, wash. VM: Don't wash, don't, I didn't wash, and I didn't iron on Sunday. Clean up on Saturday. On Sunday, all you had to do was cook and eat and go to church. EM: That's all? because, you could, back then you did not do that. Weren't no, it just in your, your, you won't going to, and when you had to, and when you wouldn't go to church, you had to have a good excuse, didn't you? VM: That's right, mm-hm. Usually, my mama made us though. EM: Uh-huh. VM: And we didn't want to go, but she made us go. Then when we get back home, we did a little planting, never did no planting out in the yard. EM: That's good. VM: Weren't too hot, weren't too hot, it was too cold. EM: I was surprised, I read research on a black, a white family.

MITZ, VIOLA SMITH 5 EM: And their rules was the same as the blacks, and I really was surprised. VM: I know it. EM: That they did not do any-1 was shocked. VM: Uh-huh. EM: The same rules they had on Sunday, it's the same rules that we had on Sunday. VM: Uh-hm. EM: I being to interview some whites, but I was surprised with that. EM: They, they, the same rules apply to everybody. What, what was your mother like? VM: She was superb person. She was quiet. She, everybody loved her, she had the personality, you know, to make people love her. EM: She had? VM: She treated everybody nice, she was nice to everybody she met, and she had a lot of friends. She was the secretary of the church. EM: What was the name of your church? VM: New Grass Creek Baptist, but, wait now, when she got married, she was at, they named this church after First Baptist, EM: Episcopalian? VM: Episcopalian, she was Episcopalian when she got married, she joined the Baptist Church. EM: Her husband was Episcopalian, or she was one? VM: She. EM: How, did she ever tell you how she became an Episcopalian?

MITZ, VIOLA SMITH 6 VM: Through, by her daddy, her parents was Episcopalian. EM: Okay, where did, where was your mother raised up at? If she was Episcopalian, where did? VM: Up Satterwhite, I think. EM: Mm-hm. What were your mother's name. VM: Panthea Satterwhite Smith. EM: Panthea Satterwhite, okay. Panthea Satterwhite. EM: What was, what, okay. She was a, did she have a middle name? VM: Just Panthea. EM: Satterwhite. VM: Mm-hm, Panthea Satterwhite. EM: What did y'all, was y'all prepared for Sunday School, who did the work in the church other than your mother, your mother was the secretary for how long? VM: My, my daddy was a deacon. EM: Your father was a deacon, and your mother was a secretary, of New Gospel, New Johnson Creek? VM: New Grass Creek. EM: Oh, how many years, what, when you was old enough, your father and your mother was working in the church? EM: Oh, y'all didn't have no choice but to go to church. VM: Mm-mm. EM: You didn't have no choice. VM: We had to go.

MITZ, VIOLA SMITH 7 EM: (Laughs). VM: (Laughs). EM: Your father, what, what was his name? VM: Gold Smith. EM: How do you spell that Gold? VM: G-O-L-D. EM: No middle name? VM: Mm-mm. EM: Okay, and your mother was named Panthea Satterwhite? EM: Okay, tell me about your father and his church work, how serious he was. VM: Well, he was the deacon. EM: Mm-hm. VM: And he went to church when time to go to church, he went. EM: You go to church once a month? VM: Once a, every, once a week. Every Sunday. EM: When you was kid? VM: Sunday School. Preaching was on third Sunday. EM: Did you, did y'all visit other churches sometimes? VM: Occasionally. EM: Did you go back, when your mother moved her denomin- moved her membership, were you old enough to know which- VM: I wasn't born.

MITZ, VIOLA SMITH 8 EM: The membership was moved before you was born? EM: Okay. VM: It was after she got married. My daddy was a Baptist, and she joined the Baptist Church. I don't know whether any of the children was born or not, I can't tell you that. EM: Okay. VM: I didn't get that far in asking her questions. EM: Tell me about your father. What kind of- VM: Well, he, he jus was a good man. He was good. EM: He, is no problem getting, everybody knew they had their own job? VM: Say that again. EM: Everybody knew they had their own job? VM: Yeah. Uh-huh. EM: In the afternoon. VM: Yeah. Mm-hm, because when they, when we get from church, all they do is sit down there at the house, and he gets to lay there and go to sleep. EM: Did your cousins come over to visit y'all on Sundays, or did y'all go to visit them? VM: They would come visit. Come to our house to visit. EM: Mm-hm. VM: That was his brother's children. EM: Mm-hm. So, your house were where everybody would come, and y'all wouldn't go, because- VM: We didn't do too much going. EM: Because, y'all, everybody came to y'all house?

MITZ, VIOLA SMITH 9 Because my mama and my daddy be there with the smaller children. EM: Uh-huh. VM: And the other ones, older, they would go to visit another house. EM: See a lot family, there is always one house everybody always go to visit. VM: And they would come to my mama's house. EM: That's where- okay. So, your house was the house everybody came to? VM: Yeah. EM: So you didn't get a chance to get, go to nobody's else. VM: Uh-uh. EM: Because they come there all the time. VM: Uh-uh, she wouldn't let me go. EM: Well, she did right, because everybody, that's why family was strong, see that's the strength of a family, when everybody came to one house on Sundays almost all the time. VM: Uh-huh. EM: That was nice. EM: Aw, your father, he was quiet in nat- VM: Yes, he was quiet, he didn't bother nobody. EM: And when he told everybody what to do- VM: He meant it, they knew he meant it. EM: Okay. VM: (Laughs). EM: (Laughs).

MITZ, VIOLA SMITH 10 VM: But, it's just like she, when she told you, she meant what she said. EM: Uh-huh. EM: They had? VM: They didn't play around. When they tell you they going to do something, they did it. Fact, we would promise the children, "I'm going to whip you." When they said "I'm going to whip you" we got the whipping. EM: Uh-huh. VM: They didn't spare us. EM: Mm-hm. Everybody was treated on the same, VM: Same order. EM: Mm-hm. I know some, some girls don't get as much whipping and get in trouble like boys do. VM: Well, I didn't get as much as the rest of them. EM: Uh-huh, yeah, always, you always find that the girl. VM: Yeah, I was the baby. EM: That a lot of girls don't get whippings, because they follow, they, they, they know what to do and they easy to get along. VM: Yeah. EM: Than boys. Your mother stayed at home, and- VM: Yeah. EM: Cooked and washed and ironed. VM: Yeah, she stay and cook well. On Sundays morning, she would get up and go down to the white man's house to fix our breakfast and dinner. EM: What's, who is that? You got to give me their name.

MITZ, VIOLA SMITH 11 VM: Uh, John, John S. Watkins. See we lived on his farm. EM: Who? VM: John, John S. Watkins, Senior. EM: Uh-huh, okay. Now, you tell me. VM: We lived on his farm, and uh, they got her to come down and cook their breakfast and, uh, cook their dinner. Then, she come back home and get read, and we cook our breakfast and dinner, then, we go to Sunday School. EM: She was smart. VM: Yeah, she was smart, but that's all she did. She didn't work in no field. My daddy would only work in the field. EM: Now, did she cook for them everyday? VM: Every Sunday. EM: Just on Sunday for Mr. and Mrs. Watkins and the kids. Just on Sunday. EM: Okay, well, this Mr. Billy Watkins' daddy? VM: Uh-huh. EM: Okay, um, far as your father working with Mr. Watkins, it never was no problem? Never. VM: No problem at all. EM: He was treated like a- VM: He was treated like he was a man. EM: And Mr. Watkins respected him, and he respected Mr. Watkins? VM: That's right. EM: That's the best way to do it.

MITZ, VIOLA SMITH 12 EM: And I guess Mr. Watkins learn a little bit about the Bible and the Church from your father, didn't he? VM: I don't know. EM: (Laughs). VM: I can't tell you that. (Laughs). EM: You know how, you know they bring that up, you know. VM: Yeah, mm-hm. EM: Yeah, yeah, you have fun, you know. That's what it's all about, is having fun. EM: It is. Uh, your mother's brothers and sisters, how many was it? VM: It was five brothers and two sisters. Five boys and three girls. EM: You want to name the boys first or the girls first? VM: Doesn't matter. EM: Okay. VM: Jane Satterwhite, now, I can't name as they come down by age, I- EM: No, I don't. VM: James Satterwhite, Harry Satterwhite, Jeff Satterwhite, Moses Satterwhite, and Rosabel. Did I call three ladies? EM: I don't know, there would be six then, you gave me five. VM: Harry Satterwhite, Curtis Satterwhite, James Satterwhite, Jeff Satterwhite, Rosabel Satterwhite. EM: Now, the girls. VM: Panthea Satterwhite, Mary Jane Satterwhite, and Pearl Satterwhite.

MITZ, VIOLA SMITH 13 EM: Okay, so your mother was a Satterwhite? I told you she was a Satterwhite. EM: Okay. So, did she, what did she say about her, her father? I know you never seen your grandfather, what did she say? VM: Yes, I did, I saw him. EM: You did? VM: I know my granddaddy on my mother's side. EM: You did? VM: Uh-huh, but not my granddaddy on my daddy's side. EM: Uh, how old were you when he passed? Do you know enough about him to tell me something about him? VM: I do not, I don't know that much, but I just remember him. EM: Uh-huh. I know he was tall, light skin. EM: Uh-huh. VM: Had shoes on the right and left. That what we laugh at. EM: (Laughs). Wore his shoes- VM: Keep on turning them over. EM: You've got to be kidding, I've never heard that, would switch over. (Laughs). That's a- that's amazing. VM: That's right. I don't know whether they farmed or not, but I know my mother told me they lived up Satterwhite. I believe she, I don't whether he shoed horses or not. But they lived up there. EM: And he could switch, even when one ofthem- VM: Wear his right shoe on his left foot and his left on his right foot.

MITZ, VIOLA SMITH 14 EM: He had every penny he ever made, didn't he? VM: I think so. EM: Did he make his own shoes? VM: No, I, I don't know- EM: Some people did. VM: Uh-huh, I imagine he bought them. EM: But you was too young. VM: Yes, I was too young to know, but I know, she told me that, because I used to sit down and ask her a lot of questions. EM: That's good. VM: And that's how I learned what I did learn, you know, about the family, what I did know. EM: Okay, so everybody that want to know anything about the family, that's why they- VM: They come to me. Uh-huh. EM: Okay, and that's why everybody told me come to you, and you'll tell me about everybody in Oxford you related to. VM: Oh, no. (Laughs). EM: You got a big family you came out. Okay, let's do your father's, uh, VM: All he ever did was farm. EM: Okay, uh, he was a, were your father, he was a Smith. VM: Yeah, Gold Smith. EM: Okay, now let's go with Gold Smith brothers and sisters. VM: Horace Smith. EM: Mm-hm.

MITZ, VIOLA SMITH 15 VM: Wally Smith. EM: Mm-hm. VM: Thomas Smith, did tell you Arch? Arch Smith, how many is that? Five boys, and- EM: What was, who was Thomas? VM: Thomas. EM: I got Horace, Wally, and Thomas. VM: Gold. EM: Okay, I need one more. VM: You got Arch? EM: Uh-uh. Okay, Arch, okay. Did you see any your father's brothers and sisters? VM: Yeah, I saw Uncle Wally, Uncle Horace, Uncle Arch. I never saw Uncle Thomas, I didn't know him. That's a William's granddaddy, William Royster. EM: Who? VM: Uncle Thomas was William Royster granddaddy. EM: Mm-hm, okay, now, tell me about Horace, let's take a, did you ever see him? VM: Yes, I saw him. EM: Tell me a little bit about. VM: Well, he farmed with John S. Watkins too. And then, he left and went into Virginia. EM: Okay. VM: And when he come back, he was sick because he never did nothing else. EM: Was Wally, was Horace the oldest? VM: I think Uncle Wally was the oldest. EM: Okay, now, tell me about Uncle Wally.

MITZ, VIOLA SMITH 16 VM: All he did was farm, and he got killed. A car hit him and killed him. EM: Who, what farm did he farm in? Did your father come up on the Watkins' farm? VM: Shucks, the man's farm was out from Cornwall store. I can't 'call- EM: Wasit- VM: Was the white man, he lived there- EM: Was it a Watkins? Okay, it'll come back to you. All right, what about Thomas? VM: I don't know what he did. He just was in Richmond. EM: He lived in Richmond? VM: Uh-huh. EM: Did he come to visit y'all? VM: I don't know. EM: Okay. VM: I think I was small when he passed. I think I was. EM: What about Arch, you ever see him? VM: Yeah, he lived right up here. He worked in the factory. I think he worked in the factory. EM: He still living? VM: No, he dead. EM: Okay, who- VM: That's Tassy's dad, Arch Smith was Tassy, Tassy Rand daddy. EM: Okay. VM: You know Tassy.

MITZ, VIOLA SMITH 17 EM: Yeah, the name, I can't get it here, but I know who you are talking about. Okay, now, who was, all right, Arch married a girl from Oxford. His wife was from Oxford. VM: Yeah. EM: What was his wife named? VM: He was married twice. Now, I don't know where his first wife come from. EM: What was the second wife? VM: Ms. Mary, here in Oxford. EM: Mary what? VM: Satterwhite. Was that Saddlefield or Satterwhite? You know, the house is right down, you know, Pete, Pete Satterwhite. EM: Uh-huh. Okay, now Gold, who did he marry? VM: Panthea, my mother. EM: Okay, she's from Oxford. VM: Yeah. EM: All right Thomas, did he marry a girl from Oxford? VM: I don't know who he married. EM: You don't know who he married? You haven't seen his children if they had children? VM: William Royster's mama. EM: Who's William Royster? VM: You know William, Estelle Royster, Estelle Cooper's husband, you know William Royster. [Coughing] made Ms. Cooper store. EM: Oh, oh yeah, okay. Okay, okay, okay, okay, now, what about Wally? VM: He lived on the, he worked with Joyce Hart, he farmed on Joyce Hart's farm. That's the Hart's farm, it's next to the Washington's farm, John went there.

MITZ, VIOLA SMITH 18 EM: All right, why, did you see, did he marry an Oxford girl? VM: I don't, I really don't know. I saw his wife Ann May. EM: What about their children? VM: Bunny used to be down there in that yellow house. You know Bunny Spencer's dad? EM: Oh yeah, okay. And Fred. EM: Mm-hm. VM: It's not but one living now. That's Kate, and she lives in Asheboro. EM: Okay. VM: You know Niamey T. Young. Naimey, those are his children. Hugh Smith, Bunny, Lulu, those are Uncle Wally's children. See, I know them better than I did the rest of them, because we lived near one another. EM: Okay, what's this Horace? VM: Yeah, Horace. EM: Tell me about. VM: He farmed on Mr. Watkins' farm. Then, he left and went to Virginia after his wife died. Now, his was, which wife come from some part of Virginia, I think. EM: Okay, now how many, did you ever see Horace's wife? VM: I just can't remember her. EM: Okay. What about the children? VM: Yes, I know the children. EM: Okay, name his children. VM: Well, the names has to come to me. Es Smith, Es, I think her name Ester, we call her Es.

MITZ, VIOLA SMITH 19 EM: Mm-hm. VM: Sula May. EM: Mm-hm. VM: Annie, Flan, Doc, Norman, Mel, Arthur, let's see. EM: Did Horace, did he long enough for you tell anything about him, or he died before you was big enough to know about him? VM: I was grown and married when he died, but he was left from here, went into Virginia, staying with his daughter. EM: What part of Virginia did he go to? VM: Black, Black, it's a Blackstone Virginia. EM: Do you think all these children born in Granville County first? VM: Yeah, mm-hm. All was born in Granville. EM: Okay, now, I ask you the word I like to talk about. Tell me who was the midwife. Were your mother or your grandmother, who was the midwife in your area? Did your mother ever tell you? VM: Aunt Martha Harris was the midwife. EM: Tell me about Aunt Martha, because you call her Aunt Martha, so, them midwives, everybody, she belong to every family. VM: And Rit Downey, those two was midwifes, those were the two did the service here in Granville County. EM: You said Martha Daniels? VM: Yeah, Aunt Martha Harris. EM: Harris. VM: Yeah, Aunt Rit Downey. EM: Mm-hm, okay, Mrs. Rit? VM: Mm-hm, Rit Downey, down, that's the fourth.

MITZ, VIOLA SMITH 20 EM: They was the midwife? EM: For the white and black? VM: I, I think so. EM: Uh-huh, yeah most time they for everybody in their community. VM: So, Aunt Martha Harris was, because when Aunt Martha Harris went and down there she called to tell that doctor she need him. They don't, she was all that good. EM: I ask most people this question: how did a midwife know about what day the baby was going come and the doctors now cannot tell? My daughter went five days, went to the hospital, and sent her back. How did they know? How was they that good? VM: They just had their knowledge, all I can say. All that's knowledge. God help her to tell that stuff because when I got in labor, they called for her, they want to get the doctor, she said, "she don't need no doctor." And I didn't have no doctor when my child was born. EM: How do they know when to move in? They know- VM: Well, they don't do nothing 'til you go and get them. EM: But, a lot of times, she go along a ways and she know. She keeps, what do they do, start before they, they start, how do they get the months together? VM: Man, I don't know. EM: But, it's amazing. VM: That's right. That's right. And, she said, she told me, she said, "you'll be here all day having this baby." I got out of bed at five o'clock that morning, went to my job, five o'clock that evening, she know that cycle she was talking about. And, you know what, she couldn't even read or write. EM: Aw- VM: That was some knowledge from God. That was from God.

MITZ, VIOLA SMITH 21 EM: I'm glad you touched on that, that, what you just said, she couldn't read or write. I always tell people that I didn't come to find out could you read and write, I came to find what, what you could remember. VM: Remember, mm-hm. EM: From what someone said, and then once I, I tell people that then they be comfortable. But, that, oh, oh yeah, a person can't read and write can do more. VM: Yeah, that's right, they sure can, because God got a hand in that. EM: They can do a whole lot of things. VM: That's right. Whole lot of things we can't do. EM: Sure can't. VM: And, when, as you call for a doctor, he ask you have you got in touch with Aunt Martha. EM: Oh, yeah? VM: That's right. Aunt Martha was just, just as good as the doctor, she was better than the doctors, what they say. EM: I asked a African guy one day, I was a history event, and I say, what happened about midwives and, I say, I never heard no one. He said, Mr., say, it's amazing what they can do in Africa. He said they can tell you in a day or two about if that, anything wrong with that baby, they are that good, he said. EM: He said they examine that whole baby's body and say how, how they know it, I don't know but, he said they can tell you a lot about a baby. I don't know how they know it, they just, they just know. EM: What else did she do? VM: Aunt Martha? EM: Uh-huh, she worked in the church, or VM: She just raised her children. She would go to church.

MITZ, VIOLA SMITH 22 EM: Uh-hm. VM: She just raised her children, tend to her children, cook for all them child, all those children. EM: I wonder who helped her with her own children. (Laughs). VM: (Laughs). I don't know. EM: Maybe that's why she had so many, she could deliver them herself. VM: I think she had a midwife. EM: She could tell, she could tell, Martha could tell. VM: Yeah, she came right before, it was what do you need a doctor, she said go get the doctor, and the doctor come in there. She would tell you to go get that doctor, the doctor didn't come, said she don't need me. EM: Okay, what school did you, your brothers and sisters did y'all go to? VM: All us went to the school they call South Hill. It was a little country school, out north of, uh, Granville County, up from Cornwall Store. All of us went to that school. Called it South Hill. EM: Now, Mr. and Mrs. Blackwell, they was the teacher? VM: That's right. EM: And who else? VM: Vanessa Smith, Ethel Smith, and Ms. Melissa Yancey, I believe that was her name. EM: Okay, Mr. and Ms. Blackwell was the head of you? They was going on. VM: They taught me. EM: They were still hanging around when you got- VM: Yeah, they was the last one to teach. EM: Oh, okay, I didn't know that when people told me. VM: Ms Melissa and Mr. William Blackwell was the last teacher to teach at South Hill.

MITZ, VIOLA SMITH 23 EM: What was the first- VM: Ms. Melissa Yancey, Ethel Smith, those are the only two I can remember. EM: Okay. Did your brothers and sisters tell you, uh, Ms. Yancey were first or Ms. Smith? because you, did you hear them, did you ever hear people? VM: I don't know which one was the first. EM: Okay. Ms. Yancey, who was she married to? VM: I don't know. EM: All, all you know, she was Ethel Yancey? VM: No, Ethel was the Ethel Smith. EM: Smith. Okay. VM: And Melissa, Melissa Yancey, she taught my sister Mary. See, I weren't old enough to go to school when they was teaching. EM: Okay, so- VM: When they was teaching I- EM: So, all you know, she was Ms. Melissa Yancey? VM: Uh-huh. From up at Johnson Creek. EM: You ever see her family, anybody you know in it? VM: I'm trying to think what's her husband name now, but I can't... EM: Okay. VM: Well, Futher Yancey's mother. But, I can't get, no, I can't get her husband's name. EM: What, her son was named what? VM: Futher Yancey, you know Futher Yancey. Remember Johnson Creek, he's a member of Johnson Creek, is all... EM: Oh, yeah. Okay, um, who, uh, Mr. Futher Yancey, he went to Johnson Creek Church, he was a good man to them?

MITZ, VIOLA SMITH 24 VM: I think so, far as I know. I had no deal-1 just see him going to Johnson Creek sometime, I, you know, would see him there. EM: Mm-hm. VM: I didn't have no dealings with him. EM: Uh, tell me about the Downeys. Did they live, they live on the Watkins, on the Benny Watkin's farm or what, what Watkin was that? VM: Now, what Downeys are you speaking about? EM: Uh, it's so many of them. VM: Just give me the name of one. EM: The gentleman that's in his ninetys. VM: Allan Downey? EM: Yes. VM: Well, EM: Tell me about him. VM: He, he lived on the Watkins farm until he bought him a house. EM: This was a different Watkins than you. Billy Watkins, were they related to Benny Watkins and all them? VM: Yeah, they was related. How, how is was, I don't know, but they was related. Billy Watkin and the other Watkin peoples, they were, they are related. EM: What, Billy Watkin them farm was a long ways from the rest of them. Is that right? Or was all them near each other? VM: Now, Billy Watkin farm was out there where I was born... EM: That's what I'm saying. VM: Uh-huh. EM: But the Downey farm were, were, they, was a long, further away?

MITZ, VIOLA SMITH 25 VM: Not too far. But Allan lived on the Watkins farm until he built him, bought and built him a house. EM: Now, what's the other- VM: And that is on passed to where Aunt Rit Downey lived. That's where he bought that way. EM: Now, who, what's the lady named that's up there about ninety, now, that lives... VM: Aunt Mary Blackwell. EM: Okay, Ms. Blackwell, tell me about her. VM: She was on her own farm. EM: Okay, did, did they, did she come up on the Watkin's farm too? VM: I think so. EM: Okay, and then they bought their farm? VM: Uh-huh. EM: Her husband was, what was his name? VM: He was a Blackwell, Turner Blackwell. EM: Can you tell me anything about Mr. Turner? VM: Mm-mm. I just know it was Turner. What I know. EM: You, you got everybody's uncles, aunt, you... VM: You know what? That's what we call peoples way back there. Weren't nobody Ms. and Mr., it was Aunt and Uncle. That's the way we was raised up. Aunts and Uncles. EM: So, you made everybody's, so everybody would say "yes ma'am," and, "no ma'am." VM: That's right. Only yes and no. EM: And that's why you call them Uncles and Aunts, because that was roles of respect.

MITZ, VIOLA SMITH 26 VM: Yeah. I was raised that way. EM: Let me ask you a hard question. VM: Okay. EM: Why did ladies eat Argo starch? VM: I don't know. I didn't like Argo starch, but I loved red dirt. EM: I was going to get to that one next. VM: (Laughs). EM: I began to ask kids, ask people, because I forgot to ask that question, and I start asking ladies, they explain it, because children will not believe it. Everybody house had a box of Argo starch in it. VM: All but mine. EM: Now, Ms. Mabel Royster, the only lady used to get me to go get red dirt. VM: Uh-huh. EM: She had a special place. VM: I did too. EM: Were she pregnant, or she just love to eat red dirt? VM: I was pregnant when I eat red dirt. EM: Okay, maybe that's why. VM: But after my child was born, I still ate it. EM: I try Argo starch, but it locked my mouth. VM: You tried to eat it? EM: Yeah, everybody had Argo starch, I was a kid, I tried it. VM: I ate baking soda. Red dirt, and baking soda, is what I ate when I was pregnant.

MITZ, VIOLA SMITH 27 EM: But- VM: I don't mind telling. I get my dirt and put it in the stove and bake it. EM: Uh-huh. I don't know what she did with it, but she would show me, she would show me, and I go get her red dirt. VM: I, yeah, I go get my own red dirt. EM: And you would bake it? VM: Uh-huh. EM: And what, what do that do? VM: It cook it. Make it give it a good taste. EM: Aw, c'mon. VM: It did. EM: Just, no mix, no water, nothing with it? VM: No water or nothing, go, it's a, uh, go and get it, I said, well you know, be done rain, and I go and dig me out that dirt. EM: Mm-hm. VM: C'mon to the house, put it on a pan, put it in the over and bake it. Then, I would eat it, and it was good. I don't know what it did, but says everybody got to eat so much dirt, so I know I ate my part. That's the way I ate red dirt. EM: Youknow- VM: My mama ate it. EM: I, Otis Landers and I, we sometimes, I go by the barber shop. They would name things that would kill kids today, like loafer, honeysuckles, or just anything like turnips. EM: Sweet potatoes, and stuff that raw, and cinnamons and stuff like that. Kids, why kids can't put that stuff in their stomach now?

MITZ, VIOLA SMITH 28 VM: I don't know, because I can't. I don't eat no persimmons. I don't eat loafers. All that kind of stuff, I don't eat. EM: When we was kids, we used to eat that stuff. VM: I never ate it. EM: You couldn't. VM: I never. EM: Uh, but you had sisters and brothers could do it? VM: Irene did, I know bother, I didn't go in no bushes. EM: Who else would eat red dirt? Your mother? VM: Yeah, my mother used to eat it, and my sister, Mary, she and I eat red dirt. EM: It's amazing people ate that stuff and never bother. VM: Never, never did. EM: Would ride straight on home. EM: Now, I was told that it was another school out there, and I got to try to look for it. Before, when you was going up- VM: [????]. EM: Let's go back over to New Johnson Creek. VM: Johnson Creek School. EM: Okay, that, okay. Now, you coming, that's what I'm looking for. VM: Uh-huh. EM: Okay, where was Johnson Creek School at? VM: Down back of the church.

MITZ, VIOLA SMITH 29 EM: Thank you. That's all, thank you. Okay, now, Johnson Creek School moved two times, wasn't it? Yeah, the church was moved too. Over. VM: I can't tell you about that. EM: Okay, now let's go back to New Grass Creek. Now, the creek...alright now, Grassy Creek, was it a creek when y'all was kids, you go across the road was a creek and you keep going, is that why it was named? VM: I reckon, I don't know. It was a creek you had to pass in going to the church. EM: Was that creek always- VM: It goes by Johnny Watkins. EM: Okay. Did you ever, y'all had to, when you was a kid up at Four, did they tell you they have to drive down in it, or was it always a bridge or was it always something over that creek? VM: Always a bridge that you had to cross. EM: It was a wooden bridge? VM: Uh-huh. EM: Okay, now, I was told that it was a school in that area too. VM: Not to my knowledge. I don't know about it. EM: Okay, you never heard any of your brothers, sisters know but your father know? VM: Only school they ever heard was South Hill School. EM: What school did your father go to? VM: I don't know. EM: Could he read and write? VM: Uh-huh. EM: How? By gift or what? VM: He went to school, but what school he went to I don't know.

MITZ, VIOLA SMITH 30 EM: He never tell you? VM: No, and you know, I don't know why I never asked him, and I didn't ask my mama what school she went to. EM: You don't know what school your mother went to? VM: Uh-uh, but my mother finished the seventh grade. EM: Ain't there somebody 'round here tell you they went to school with your mother, used to tell you when you was a little kid? VM: I don't think nobody 'round here know my mother. Who would know my mother, they are dead. EM: Okay, the Satterwhites, she related, she related to Ms. Reesa Royster and them? VM: Uh-huh, that what Ms. Reesa say, my mother was related to them, but I didn't know her. EM: Okay, did you, are you related to, uh, Dr. Chambers? VM: Uh-huh. EM: On which way? VM: The Chavis, Chavis side. See my mother's, my mother's mother, coming through my mother, I reckon, I don't know which way, but I know my mama told her. EM: What she tell your mother... VM: And my mama told me that we was related to [???] Chavis. EM: Okay, what was your grandmother's name? VM: Amy, I don't know what her last name before she married. EM: What was her last name after she got married? VM: She was Amy Satterwhite. EM: She married a Satterwhite? VM: Uh-huh. My granddaddy.

MITZ, VIOLA SMITH 31 EM: Okay, uh, did they tell you anything about Grandma Satterwhite, how smart she was or what? VM: Mm-mm. EM: Your mother could read and write? VM: Yeah. EM: Where did she learn it from? VM: School, over what school she went to, I don't know. EM: Did she go to Satterwhite School? VM: I imagine so, they live, they was living up there. EM: Where was your father, was he born on the Watkin's farm? VM: No, but where he was born, I don't know. I never asked him, I don't even know where they lived. EM: You never asked that question? VM: Mm-mm, because we told my daddy's dad, uncle [????], we never called him granddad. We called him uncle [????] all the time. EM: Could he read and write? VM: I reckon so, I think I saw him one time. EM: Okay, how was he, was he an older guy, was he, did he move around a lot, or did he have a lot of children, or what? VM: No, all the children he had are what I told you. EM: He had enough of them. VM: Yeah, that's right, uh-huh, that's all I know. I can't tell you where they lived. I don't know why, I didn't ask him, because I got, most what I got, from my mama. EM: Uh-huh. VM: Because, see, my mama didn't work.

MITZ, VIOLA SMITH 32 EM: Mm-hm. VM: She stayed at the house and cook. EM: Mm-hm. VM: And kept the house clean, and then [????], she and I be sitting on the porch, and that's when I ask her these questions. EM: I'm glad you ask her. Uh, she did sewing by hand? VM: What sewing she did. You know, she didn't do no sewing, just like taking in something. That was by hand. EM: Y'all always had plenty food? VM: Plenty food. Never went hungry. It weren't nothing but meat and bread, but we had plenty that. For my daddy, saw to us having food to eat. EM: Had his own garden? VM: Yeah. EM: You would raise your own? VM: Own garden, raise our own peas and had a cow. EM: Did you have garden in the day time, I mean in the winter time, too? VM: No, they had no garden in the winter time. EM: Uh, you know the lady told me at the library the other day. She was white, she would teach at the university, so you know how those teachers, you know. VM: Yeah. Uh-huh. EM: She wanted my to ask people, uh, what did they raise in the garden. And I said, Ms., I don't know where you from, I said, but, in this area, everybody grew the same thing in the garden. She said, "Mr. McCoy, what are you saying?" I said they had string beans, they had pole beans, they had bug beans, they had cabbage, they had squash, they had this, they had this, and I said, what one would have in the garden, the next one planted this, [??????]. She said, "well, I want you to ask people." Is aid I'll ask them, but they, they would think there is something wrong with me, if they had to name it all, because I knew what people raised in their garden, everybody raised the same thing.

MITZ, VIOLA SMITH 33 VM: Uh-huh. EM: And, so, uh, I went to the copy machine, and this white man, he said, I said, what's wrong with that lady. He said, I don't know where she from, but you done told her... VM: Phone ringing! EM: So, uh, your garden, y'all, did your father have enough food for other relatives if they wanted like hog meat? Did they kill meat together, hogs together, or what? VM: Well, when they kill hogs, they always get the neighbor, give the neighbor a piece of the hams, a taste of sausage, piece of liver, piece of backbone, piece of end meat, or we would divide, you know. EM: Everybody. VM: Uh-huh. With so many people, not everybody, too many for all, there would be none for us, but they would always, you know, to give the neighbors. EM: Did y'all have corn shuckers together? VM: Yes, no. He had the corn shuckers to himself. EM: All right what did y'all do to... VM: Cook for him. My mama cooked, oh, she would cook up the food. Then, they had wood cutting. EM: That's right, everything comes to your house. VM: No, now, this, my daddy would have it at his house, then the next man would have it at his house, unlce Bob would have it at his house. EM: Okay, the corn shucking, everybody come. VM: Yeah. Those that do the inviting don't come [?????]. EM: It was just like a get together. VM: Yeah. EM: Everybody set and tell jokes. VM: Yeah, and eating up some food, eating up some food.

MITZ, VIOLA SMITH 34 EM: Sure everybody had a good time. VM: Yes, a good time. EM: Children running around. Uh, uh, what is the wood cutting be the same thing. VM: Yeah. EM: Everybody would eat. VM: Yes, they would, because they'd sit up there and raise and cutting down trees and things. EM: Uh-huh. VM: And when sun go down, they all come to the house and eat. EM: Mm-hm. VM: And they'd be eat up some food, because they'd be hungry. Out there cutting some trees and things, know it made them hungry. EM: Mm-hm. VM: Yes, there would be good time, be so much good food then. EM: Yeah. VM: And there's wheat cutting at wheat time. EM: Mm-hm. VM: My mama had to fix, you know, come get some people to help cut wheat, and she'd fix food for them. EM: Your mama had a lot of love in her, didn't she? She surely did. EM: She had a big heart, didn't she? VM: Yeah, I hope got one just like her. EM: She would give away the world, wouldn't she?

MITZ, VIOLA SMITH 35 VM: (Laughs). I don't know. EM: Take the ball, give it back to her. VM: Yeah, because she told me one day, see my mother used snuff, excuse me. EM: Uh-huh. VM: And she said she was sitting on the porch, and she looked up towards heaven, and said, "Lord, is this snuff going to keep my from entering your kingdom?" said take the taste away from her. She didn't put another dip in her mouth. That's right. I had a good mother. A stone good mother. My daddy was good, and my daddy weren't a [????] like my mother. EM: Your mother was a [??????]. VM: Yeah, she believes in heaven. EM: Mm-hm. So, the love- VM: And she tell you what she has to tell you now. EM: She would? VM: Don't think, don't think she wouldn't, she had to tell anything, she would tell you, she would tell you just like it was. EM: Aw, does she, did you have to look her in the eye? VM: Eh, it didn't matter. She be looking at you with her finger pointing. EM: That's one thing I'm glad my grandmother made me do. EM: You had to look her in the eye. EM: They, that was a good reading. VM: Yeah. EM: I don't know where that blessing came from, but I've talked to doctors, I've talked to professional people.

MITZ, VIOLA SMITH 36 EM: And they asked if that's one of the themes that you always have in security police or anything deal with law enforcement. But you know, I though a white person can't look you in your eye. They can't do it. [?????], and I can stand there and look them dead in the eye, don't even bat my eye. EM: I did it. VM: I know it's upsetting now, I can stone do it, but I cry when I get upset. EM: I would too, uh, I had, uh, a accident, I went to a hearing, and the lawyer lied and that's what I did the whole time, and as everybody talked to me, I still kept my eyes on him. VM: Uh-huh. EM: And he would look up and then he would look down. VM: That's right, they cannot look at you. EM: And he would look away, and then, he, you could see him talking to himself, and wanted to know why was I, didn't take my eyes off of him. But, uh, he don't know that, uh, the reason I looked at him the whole time, he was a big liar, VM: Uh-huh. EM: And, he wanted me to tell lies. He wasn't my lawyer, but yes- yes, yes, he was trying to make me tell lies. EM: And, that's what I appreciate about my grandmother. [END OF SIDE A]