R.41. Special Projects: Tobe : Visions of Childhood, Race, and Rural Life in Children s Literature

Transcription

1 This interview is part of the Southern Oral History Program collection at the University of North Carolina at Other interviews from this collection are available online through and in the Southern Historical Collection at Wilson Library. R.41. Special Projects: Tobe : Visions of Childhood, Race, and Rural Life in Children s Literature Interview R-0734 Jan Garner, Michael Garner, and Sonya Garner 29 June 2014 Transcript p.2

2 TRANSCRIPT: Jan, Michael, and Sonya Garner Interviewee: Interviewer: Jan, Michael, and Sonya Garner Benjamin Filene Interview Date: June 29, 2014 Location: Length: Telephone interview: Conference call with Jan, Michael, and Sonya Garner at their homes in Lancaster, Texas 1 hour and seven minutes START OF INTERVIEW [There is static throughout the recording] Benjamin Filene: Hello? Jan Garner: Dr. Filene? Benjamin Filene: Hi! How are you? Jan Garner: I m [ ]. Can you hear me well? Benjamin Filene: Hello? Jan Garner: Can you hear me well? BF: Oh, yes, now I can. Can you hear me? Jan: Oh, okay. Yes, I can hear you. We were trying I m sorry. We were trying to get everything set up here. BF: Oh, no, that s great. That s fine. Jan: And it ended up we couldn t use the land line. So, we had to call you from the cellphone. So, we hope that works out well. BF: Yeah, that s fine. I can hear you just fine. Is your brother there?

3 Jan: Yes, he is here. Michael Garner: How you doing? BF: Good. How are you? So, I just wanted to make sure it s okay: I m recording this so I don t have to take a lot of notes. And that way, I can get someone to type it out for me. So, is that okay with you guys? [Pause] Is that okay if I record it? [Pause] Uh-oh. I think I lost you. her now. Jan: Hello? BF: Yeah? Can you hear me? Jan: I m going to yes. I m going to include my sister in on the call. So, I m about to call BF: Oh, okay. Who which sister? Jan: Her name is Sonya. BF: Sonya? Okay. Jan: Okay, hold on. [Long pause in conversation while connecting] Okay, Dr. Filene? BF: Yes, hi. Sonya Garner: Hi! How are you? BF: Good. Jan: We re all on. BF: Well, terrific! Well, as I said I don t know if you heard me. I d like to record this, if that s okay, so I can just keep track of everything. Jan: Okay. BF: Is that alright with each of you? Sonya: That s fine. Jan: Yes.

4 BF: Okay, so that probably means I ll have someone transcribe it, you know, type it out. So, I m going to start by saying our names and the date and everything, so they can know who is who. So, I m Benjamin Filene, F-I-L-E-N-E. And today is, let s see, June twenty-ninth, and I m around the phone. So, could you each say your names and spell them? Jan: Yes, I m Jan Garner, J-A-N G-A-R-N-E-R. BF: Um-hmm. Michael: I m Michael Garner, M-I-C-H-A-E-L G-A-R-N-E-R. Sonya: And I m Sonya Garner, S-O-N-Y-A G-A-R-N-E-R. BF: Alright. Well, thanks so much for I know this is, especially for Jan and Michael, at least, this has been a long time coming, so I appreciate your patience and arranging this with me. Would it help if I just tell you a little bit about what I m up to here? Jan: Yes. BF: So, I teach history at UNC-Greensboro, and my background and my area of interest really is museum work. I worked in history museums for a dozen years before coming to the university. And most of that time, I was working on making museum exhibits, mostly in Minnesota, actually. But I grew up in Chapel Hill and several years ago moved back home and started working at UNCG. So, I teach history and I run a graduate program in museum studies. So, people who want to go on and work in history museums come to our masters program. And so, as part of I was in UNC-Chapel Hill s archive, and that s actually where I first came across the book, Tobe [pronounces Tō bē, two syllables] or Tobe [pronounces Tōb, single syllable]. I don t know how you say it. Different people pronounce it different ways, [0:05:00] but the Tobe book. I came across it and I had never seen it before. And I was just very interested, both in the story you know, how did this book come about? but also in the photographs,

5 wondering, you know, who were these people really? And what did they think of this book? And how did you know, where were these photos taken? So, I started doing some research and talking to people. And one thing led to another, and I eventually met your uncle, Charles Garner, and several other people that you may know. I ve now been working to track down and interview people in the photographs and people on whom the story was originally based. [Sounds of kids playing in background] So, I ve talked to Ernestine Gray and Betty Jean Floyd and Ted Herbin. You know, many of these people I think are connected to you guys, right? Jan: Yes. BF: So, what I m doing with this is moving toward, first, a small exhibit that s going to be here at UNC-Chapel Hill, which is where I discovered the book. As part of their archives, they have a small museum gallery, and I m going to be doing an exhibit this fall, in October, that looks at the story behind the book and why the book is interesting to historians, because I think it was one of the very first children s books that tried to depict African American life in a respectful, dignified way, and tried to tell stories of everyday life on the farm in the South with photographs, you know, and to use real people. So, it s interesting in the history of children s literature. It s interesting to me in terms of the history of race; you know, children s books from the 1920s are kind of shocking to us, I think, the way African Americans are depicted. And then, I m also interested in the stories of the people, as I said, Who were these people? So, I met Charles Garner, or Windy, and he was very generous with his time. I ve talked to him a couple of times. And I ve talked to Ted Herbin. And then, for people who have passed away, I ve been trying to track down descendants. And so, I when I heard about your dad through your uncle, I was interested in talking to you about anything you may have heard

6 about the book, but also about just his life. What happened to him after you know, he s such a little boy in this book. What happened to him afterwards? So, I ve just been asking people about their impressions of the book, but also their impressions of where life took people afterwards. Because I think the book is sort of the beginning of a life, right, and then they had a whole life after that. So, I know that s kind of broad, but does that help a little bit? Or any questions about what I m trying to do? based? Jan: No. That gives us a platform. BF: Alright. So, well, maybe just for starters, are you all in Texas? Where are you each Jan: We re all in Texas, in Lancaster, Texas, as a matter of fact. BF: Are you all what town are you in? Jan: Lancaster, L-A-N-C-A-S-T-E-R. BF: Um-hmm. Is that near Dallas? Jan: We re about five or ten minutes from Dallas by car. BF: Okay. All three of you are there? Jan: Yes. BF: Uh-huh. So, how did your dad end up in Texas? Do you know? Jan: Well, I can t remember which one told me. I believe it was my dad. But my mother is from Tennessee, and my dad, of course, North Carolina. And we moved to El Paso, which is where he retired. And they could not she didn t want to move to North Carolina. He didn t want to move to Tennessee. So, they decided they would make Texas their home. BF: [Laughs] Okay. So, it was kind of a compromise?

7 Jan: Yeah. BF: So, you mean he hadn t worked in Texas? He retired to Texas? [0:10:00] Jan: He retired in Texas, yes. BF: Okay. Jan: Retired from the service. BF: Oh, okay. So, was he in the service his whole life, his whole working life? Jan: Twenty years. Michael: He actually retired from Fort Bliss. When he retired, he moved to Dallas and started working at El Centro College. BF: I m sorry, Michael. Could you say that a little louder? Michael: Yeah. He actually retired from Fort Bliss. BF: Fort [Dix], uh-huh. Michael: And then, once he retired, they moved to Dallas, and he started working for El Centro College in the Dallas Community College District. BF: Oh? Michael: Started working for El Centro. And then, after he worked there ten or fifteen years and retired again, he then started driving a cab part-time. BF: Started driving what? Michael: Started driving a cab. BF: Oh. Michael: Actually, he was working at El Centro and driving a cab he was working at El Centro in the daytime and driving a cab at night. BF: Oh.

8 Michael: And then, when he retired from El Centro, he just started driving the cab. BF: Are you saying El Centro? Michael: Yeah, El Centro College. BF: Okay. What did he do there? Michael: He was a security guard. BF: Okay. And is that what he did at the community college also? Michael: I m sorry? Jan: Yes, that s what he did at the community college. BF: Um-hmm. So, he went from the service to working in Texas for those colleges and then also driving a cab. Jan: Yes. BF: Um-hmm. And where did he connect where did he meet your mom? Jan: He met my mother when he was stationed at Fort Campbell. BF: Okay. What was his? Michael: My mother I m sorry. BF: Go ahead. Michael: My mother grew up in Clarksville, Tennessee, right outside of Fort Campbell. BF: Okay. Michael: And so, you know, I guess they met there on base, or I don t know I don t know the exact circumstances. Jan: They met at a parade. Michael: Oh. BF: Oh, really?

9 Jan: Yeah, a parade. They were having a parade downtown Clarksville. BF: And he was watching, or he was in it? Jan: No, he wasn t they were both spectators. She was with her parents. And at some point, he spotted her and asked my grandfather could he speak with her, could she sit in his car, or whatever. And I believe he said, Yes, but only if my uncle sat in the car with them, her brother. [Laughs] BF: [Laughs] That s a great story. Jan: Yes. BF: So, what did your dad do in the service? Do you know? Jan: I know that while he was there, one thing that he did do was Michael: He was a radar specialist. Jan: Yeah, he was a radar specialist. BF: So, do you know about when he joined to service? Jan: Well, I think he was about sixteen or seventeen. BF: Oh? Jan: He had graduated high school, and I think once he graduated high school, he went straight into the military. BF: Okay. Jan: He probably had some little odd jobs, but I don t know what they were. BF: Uh-huh. Michael: His retirement papers said he retired in 1957 and he spent twenty years in. BF: Okay. So, yeah Michael: So, that would be around

10 BF: That s about right, isn t it? Michael: [ ] BF: Um-hmm. So, do you know well, I guess I can look this up, but do you know offhand when he was born? Jan: BF: Okay. Jan: May twentieth, I believe. BF: Okay. And so, is your mother still around, or did she pass away? Jan: No, both are deceased. BF: Uh-huh, okay. So, did Jan: [She before him]. BF: So, did he ever talk to you about this book? Jan: As a matter of fact, I was the one that discovered it, and only when I asked him about it. [Laughs] BF: [Laughs] Jan: I was chiding him: Why didn t he tell the family about the book? And I guess it was just something he hadn t thought about. BF: Um-hmm. Jan: You know, he just hadn t thought too much about it. BF: So, was this as a grownup that you discovered it? Jan: Yes. BF: So, what did he say when you did show it to him? [0:15:00] Did he say anything?

11 Jan: Um, not really. He really didn t say much about it. And he I don t really recall that he had an explanation as to why he didn t talk to us about it. But I don t recall that he really said anything about it. BF: Um-hmm, um-hmm. Michael: I can t remember him ever saying a word about it. BF: Okay. Sonya, you? Jan: Sonya! BF: Did we lose her? Sonya: Did he ever tell me what? Jan: About the book, Tobe [pronounces Tōb]. Sonya: The [bed strobe]? Jan: No, about the book, Tobe. Sonya: No. BF: Okay. Sonya: I learned about the book, Tobe, from my sister, Jan. BF: Uh-huh. How did you find it, Jan? Jan: I was visiting relatives in North Carolina one summer, and either my uncle, Uncle Windy, or my Aunt Jenny asked me did I know anything about the book. And I didn t. I told them, No, I didn t. And at that point, one of them maybe my Aunt Jenny it could have been I had another maternal aunt still living at the time, great-aunt, and her name was [Louella], and one of them had a copy of it, and they gave it to me. And so, I was real excited about that, among other things, when I went there that summer.

12 BF: Um-hmm. Did you guys used to go to Goshen or Greensboro much when you were kids? Jan: No. No, we didn t. I can my recollection of going was probably in junior high and then, again, when I became an adult. BF: Um-hmm, okay. So, I guess I should which one of you is the oldest, and the middle, and the youngest? Jan: Jan is the oldest, Mike, then Sonya. BF: Uh-huh, okay. So, Jan, when you discovered it, what were your first impressions of the book? Jan: Well, I was real excited about it, I mean, just kind of shocking. That particular day, I was with my uncle well, it may not have been that particular day, because I was there probably about seven days but my uncle was taking me to visit some great-uncles. And I recall riding down one of the streets or a road. It may have been a road. I can t remember. And we were going to see my uncle, our Uncle [Houston] Herbin. And as we got ready to turn on the road, I commented to my uncle how coincidental it is that we are about to turn on a road that is Herbin Road. And my Uncle Windy told me, Oh, Jan, that s not a coincidence. That s named for our family. And then, maybe that same day or another day, we were going to see my Aunt Jenny and we turned down Roberts Court, which is named for the other side of the family. And that, plus maybe that s what made Uncle Windy tell me about the book, I don t know, but that, plus the book, was just the culmination of a number of things that I found out that day that I was really excited about. So, I was excited about the book.

13 Now, we ve always been told that the fictitious the story and the pictures portraying the story was about our family. We never knew about another family. BF: Oh, um-hmm. Jan: So, with you doing this investigating, well, we re finding out about that. So, we never knew anything about that. BF: Um-hmm. Yeah. Are you in touch with Ernestine Gray? Jan: Yeah. Yeah, I do talk with her. BF: Yeah, [0:20:00] she s been very helpful and nice to me. But I know she was not I felt bad. I think she was upset [laughs] when she heard about that the text, the words, started at least with the story of another family in Hillsborough. But the photos are I think the thing is that the story rings true to people who grew up there, you know, who lived that life, because it s a story that, you know, a lot of people experienced. So, I think it still does reflect when I talked to Windy, he said that he felt a lot of the story really did reflect the life that he remembered. So, it s true in that sense. But the family that was the neighbor of the author Jan: The inspiration? BF: Yeah, the original inspiration was a different family. And I don t know as much about them, although I ve talked to a couple of people. I ve had a harder time tracking them down. But, yeah. home? So, Michael and Sonya, have you seen the book? Did you get to see it after Jan came Michael: I don t know. It seems like to me I ve seen the book. I don t remember reading the book. I d like to have a copy of the book. I knew about the book. I think Jan told me about it. You know, to be honest with you, it was just kind of a, uh I was a little bit surprised and didn t

14 know how to feel about it. You know, it was just kind of like a [ ]. I didn t realize all of this. And I think, if I m not mistaken, the aspect of it if I m not mistaken, I think the thing that stands out about it is the required reading, if I m not mistaken. BF: Is the what? Michael: If it was, I would just like to, you know Jan: Well, we were I believe it was Ernestine that told us, and maybe you can, from your research we were told that it was required reading in grade schools. BF: Oh? Jan: That it was used as a reader in grade schools. Is that what you found? BF: Well, you know, that s a good question. One of the hard things to find out is how was any book actually used or received, you know. So, I don t know that it was required. I don t know that it was required, but it s possible. I mean, it was designed to be a reader. I mean, it was designed to be something that you I mean, it s not for people who are just learning to read, because it s too complicated. Jan: Yeah. BF: But it s designed for kids, and it s designed to help them read, and it is definitely designed to do so in a way that well, for African American readers to have a story that rings true to them, and for white readers to have a more, I think, respectful treatment of African American subjects. I don t know that I don t know, maybe but Ernestine would know. I mean, if she remembers it being required, that could be. Yeah, I don t know. Jan: Yeah, I would have to verify that. I don t want I can t etch it in stone. BF: Sure, sure, yeah. Well, I do think it had it did have some reach, you know, like there are letters in the archives from educators. Well, what s in the archives are letters from the

15 photographer, between the photographer and the publisher. The publisher was UNC Press, the University of North Carolina Press, and so that s why the letters are in the UNC archives. And so, there are letters from educators to the press, you know, from teachers and principals, thanking them for publishing the book, saying that it s that, to them, it was something that was really needed. So, that makes me think that it was definitely distributed someplace, you know, to libraries and schools and things like that. Yeah, definitely. So, when so, do you have the book with you right now? Jan: My parents moved at one point. This is years back. And I have not been able to find it since. BF: Oh, too bad! Okay. [Thumping sound] Oops! Can you hear me? Jan: Yes. [0:25:00] BF: Okay. I just got a little static there. I was wondering if when you looked at the pictures, did you recognize your dad? Jan: Um, yeah, I I did recognize him. Well, I m trying to think, or did Uncle Windy point him out? I can t remember that I recognized him right off. BF: But Jan: Uncle Windy may have pointed who was who out, you know. BF: Sure, yeah. Jan: I definitely knew who my you know, my grandmother and BF: Oh? Jan: Yeah, I definitely knew my grandmother, but I don t know that I recognized any of the younger ones right off the bat.

16 BF: Um-hmm, okay. Well, I think in the book they say they call they identify two pairs of twins, and they name the twins Alton and Alvis, and they call one Big Boy and one Little Boy. And the Big Boy, they say, is Ted Herbin. And then, I think your dad would be I think your dad is the one they called Little Boy. Jan: Okay. BF: Was he a little man, or did he grow to be a big man? [Laughs] Jan: Well, he was always slender. He, of course, got taller. I think Ted was just always yeah, yeah. He says, my brother says our dad was about 6 1, 185. BF: Oh, okay! So Jan: Yeah, Ted was just always, I think, in height I don t think that he was, in terms of weight. I think just in terms of height. BF: Um-hmm, yeah. Well, in the book, they don t look all that different in size, but you can tell Ted is a little taller, maybe. at all? Jan: Yeah. BF: Alright. Well, this is great. Do you have any did you find any pictures of your dad Jan: Yeah, I did. And there are two that I m still looking for, but I m going to send the others tomorrow. BF: Okay. Jan: There are two that I m still looking for. There is one with Dad with us three, and then, there s another one with him in his military suit. BF: Oh, great! Jan: I just couldn t find those. I just couldn t find them, but I know I have them.

17 BF: Alright. Jan: But I have one I actually didn t know that he played baseball at some point in time. BF: Oh? Jan: But I have a picture of that, and just one of my mom and my dad. BF: Oh, how nice! Well, when you send them, are you going to send them by or sent the actual pictures. Jan: I m going to try to send the actuals. BF: Okay. Jan: I ll see which one works. I don t know that if I send them well, actually, they re black and white, so one is color. The others are black and white, so it may work. I may get them scanned tomorrow at work and send them. BF: Yeah, that would be fine. Jan: And see how they [do]. BF: Okay. Jan: Okay. BF: Well, either way. If you do mail them, make sure you you know, just let me know, and I ll be on the lookout for them to make sure that I keep good track of them. Jan: Okay. BF: And if you could tell me when you send them, you know, approximate date, like 1950s or whatever, as close as you can. Jan: Okay.

18 BF: Yeah. So, did your dad talk about growing up in Goshen? Well, would he have did he say he was from Goshen, or did he say he was from Greensboro? How did he describe it? Do you know? Jan: He would say Greensboro. Daddy didn t talk about it that much. There were just specific stories he would mention, I mean, very specific. If someone was on TV praying, he might mention his uncle, [laughs] his Uncle John, I think, or one of his uncles, that when he said his prayer at church, they would seem like they were on their knees for hours! BF: [Laughs] Jan: And he d get tickled about that. I m trying to think and then Michael: He used to tell me how far he had to walk [0:30:00] [ ]. When he was growing up, he had to walk all the way across town, you know, [ ] job, because Daddy was always doing work. BF: I m sorry, Michael. Can you say it I can t quite hear you. Can you say it again? Michael: Yeah. I said he used to always tell me about how far he had to walk to go to BF: Oh? Michael: You know, couldn t catch a train or wasn t able to, you know, catch a taxi, and he didn t have a car. And back then, of course, you know, buses were segregated. So, he had to walk to work. You know, Daddy always really had a real, real strong work ethic. You know, I really don t ever remember him not working, you know, until he got too sick to work. As a matter of fact, it seemed like to me he always had two jobs. He just grew up that way. You know, he just told me he just grew up working.

19 And I think the family you know, the family was poor. And he was just a person that was going to you know, he didn t take handouts. You know, he worked for everything he got, and he just would not you know, if he couldn t work and earn it, then, you know, he wasn t going to have it. And, you know, that s all I that s basically the main, I guess the main I don t know if it s the main thought or the main impression that he always left me with was, you know, he was family-centric. It was always about his family. It was always about his kids. He did he used to tell me all the time, Everything I do, I do for y all. You know, None of this is for me. And he actually proved it over and over again. BF: Wow, that s great. Yeah. Michael: Yeah, I mean, he was rock-solid. BF: Yeah. Michael: He was rock solid. But he always worked, always, always worked, and I think he instilled that. You know, he instilled that in us. BF: One of the things that comes through in this book, and that I remember from talking to your uncle about is Michael: If you ll let me interrupt, he was also frugal. BF: He was also what? Michael: Frugal. BF: Frugal. Oh. Yeah. Michael: Yeah. I guess growing up with nothing, he did not like to waste nothing. He did not like to you know, Daddy was one he watched his pennies. You know, he really, really watched his pennies. And, I mean, he would give you the shirt off his back! But, you know, he just wasn t he wasn t into high fashion or, as we were growing up, you know, what all the

20 other kids wore, or nothing like that. We had to take we had to get [laughs] whatever he could get, and that was it. BF: Um-hmm. Jan: He didn t you asked did he talk about his family much. He didn t, I mean, didn t talk about Greensboro much. That story that Mike told you about the distance of the job and how he had to walk, the story I mentioned, you know, about his uncle and, you know, him praying long prayers in church, and it was just specific stories like that, but not a lot of them. BF: Um-hmm. Jan: Because of the way he was as an adult with us, I take it that that s the way his family was. It was a large family, but it was a family that did instill a work ethic. It was just a strong work ethic, and that carried over, you know, into his adulthood. He was older than my mom. So, by the time he married my mother, he was much more settled. He was about twenty-seven, and twenty-seven in his day was an old man, getting married, [laughs] and my mom was he was nine years older than my mom. BF: Oh, okay. Jan: So, he was a [0:35:00] much more settled man. And so, as Michael stated, it was always about us and taking care of his family and making sure that he met his obligations regarding his family. One story I would like to share. He told me this after my mom had passed, and it just left such a great impression on me. It so defined who he was. He we were little. My sister wasn t born, but I was born and my brother. And he was having to move to Washington not Washington D.C., but Washington state. And I don t know where we were living at the time. I ve forgot now. But this was one of the times that the military didn t move him, didn t move us. He had to pack up the car, and we had to drive.

21 Well, he only he had some money with him, but he was also expecting that once he reached Washington that he would get paid. Well, on the way, on the trip on the way, he had spent all the money, you know, getting food and stopping, you know, for us to sleep. So, he was out of money. He just had enough gas to make it. So, he thought, Well, what am I going to do? I have my family with me. So, he just started selling whatever he had in the car. He sold a watch, I think, and a radio, just to get additional money to make it to Washington. Well, once he got there, he remembered he had a friend or a guy that he knew that was there. And, well, it just so happened that we arrived on Friday, and he didn t arrive in time to get his check. So, he went to the guy s house that he knew and he asked, he said, Hey, I have my family with me. Can I borrow twenty dollars because I need to get a room for my family? And the guy was pretty rude, and my daddy was a very proud person, and he did not like asking him, but he had his family with him. And he had already spent the money that he sold the items for. He got the room. And that Monday, when he went to pick his check up, he said the first thing he did, he went and knocked on that guy s door, gave him the twenty dollars, and he said, I never saw him again! But the thing that struck me was the thing that s been throughout his whole life: He did whatever he had to do to take care of his family. BF: Yeah. Jan: And he was always and whatever he had to do, it was within the confines of [abiding], you know, by the law. He was one that always believed in abiding by the law and taking care of his family. And that just struck me so, because I thought there wasn t anything my dad would not do for us, not anything he would not do for his children and his grandchildren. My mom never worked outside of the home. BF: Oh, um-hmm.

22 Jan: Yeah. BF: Wow. Jan: She never worked outside of the home. BF: Those are great. Thank you. It does what I was going to say is one of the things that the book shows and that Windy emphasized was how much work it was to make a living on a farm, you know. [Laughs] Jan: Yeah. BF: You know, you can just really see that, and I imagine that that work ethic came through from watching your grandfather and grandmother work on the farm. And then, also, they you know, he must have grown up during the Depression, during some hard times, also, which I m sure made it only harder. Yeah. Did you ever do you have any impression of your grandparents, [0:40:00] your dad s parents? Jan: My grandfather died. I don t ever remember him. But my grandmother, what I remember of her was that, um, she was a very loving person. And the time that I do remember visiting we would talk with her on the phone, but do remember visiting she always wanted us to feel that, you know, we were just welcomed, you know, as so many grandmothers do, that whatever she could do we just felt safe and loved. BF: Did Greensboro seem like a very different area to you, compared to where you grew up, compared to Texas? Jan: Well, I don t as I said, we didn t visit Greensboro that much. BF: Right. Jan: So, I really can t make that comparison. I can t make the comparison.

23 BF: Um-hmm. I wonder do you know if they were still farming when you got there as a kid in junior high? Jan: No, no. Now, well, I can t say that. You know what? I can t say that. Of course, my grandmother wasn t. BF: Yeah. Jan: And I don t remember seeing a garden. But I can t say that about my great-uncles, because I m quite sure they probably still were doing some had a garden. BF: Um-hmm. You know, one thing that both Ted Herbin and Windy said to me was that they themselves, they admired the farm, you know, how hard their parents worked, but they themselves wanted to get off the farm. [Laughs] Jan: Yeah, oh, yeah! [Laughs] BF: Did you dad ever say anything about that? Jan: Well, no, not in particular. But I think everyone that I knew, my cousins on both sides of the family the rural life, when they had the opportunity, they left. You know, big city, here I come! BF: [Laughs] Um-hmm. Jan: So, I don t think any of them were excited I think the only people that were excited about the rural life was Sonya s not really old enough to remember, but my brother and I! Because we traveled a lot, we just thought the country life was the [best] life. [Laughs] BF: Oh, really? Jan: But my cousins who grew up in the country did not think it was the [best] life. BF: [Laughs] Because you traveled a lot because of the military, you mean? Jan: Yes.

24 BF: Is that what you mean? Jan: Hmm? BF: You moved a lot because of the military, is that what you mean? Jan: I m sorry, what did you say? Sonya: Yes, that s why she moved a lot, because of the military. Jan: Oh, yes. Yes, we did move a lot because of the military. BF: Um-hmm. Yeah, that s interesting. So, you had a different vision of rural life than they might have. Yeah. Jan: Yeah, I had a totally different vision. I mean, I when my dad when I was born in 1958 and Mike in 59, and by the time Sonya came, my dad had already retired. But when we were born, the military was the military, I think, integrated in So, all of my life and all of my brother s life, we knew we grew up in an integrated setting. And most of my cousins, well, they did not. And I am fifty-six, and I know a lot of fifty-six-year-olds remember the Colored Only signs and the back of the bus. But I never saw that, because we were always around the military, around the base or around military families. So, we never saw that side. Now, it s not that it didn t exist. BF: Sure. Jan: But I I think I was probably in [ ] grade when I [0:45:00] recognized that there was a problem, you know, that there were problems with blacks and whites. But I that s just kind of a sidebar. The rural life, you know, we always thought it was fun, and I never knew anything about the problems that the racial problems that were going on. BF: So, you Jan: Hmm?

25 BF: No, go ahead. I m sorry, go ahead. Jan: No, you were about to BF: No, I was just wondering if your dad ever talked about racial problems growing up. And Michael talked about, you know, the segregated buses. Did he give you any sense of the racial situation in Greensboro when he was a kid? Jan: Um. Michael: He used to talk to me about not about specific incidents, but he just talked to me about, you know, in general. I guess it was his way of teaching me, you know, how to move about in the world, how to move about in, you know, in a racially diverse world. And but he used to [tell me], you know, [not specific stories, but just generally how it was]. You know, We couldn t do this and, you know, we couldn t do that, you know, when I was coming up. Jan: Oh, he talked to you about that coming up? Michael: Yeah. Jan: Oh, okay. Michael: Yeah, he talked to me about he talked to me about it was hard. BF: About what? Michael: It was difficult. And he never said it, but I always thought that was the reason why he joined the service. And I you know, pretty much when he joined the service, you know, like Jan said, the rural life, he never [ ]. And so, he joined the service and didn t look back. BF: Yeah. Michael: You know, because it wasn t you know, it was a hard life. BF: Yeah. Michael: It was a very, very difficult life. And he wanted a better opportunity.

26 BF: Yeah. I missed a little bit of what you said, Michael. You said he taught you how to move along in a diverse world and Michael: He used to tell me about [ ] and, you know, growing up in the South, and, you know, [back then] they couldn t eat in certain places, and things like that. But, you know, he always told me about it, not in a complaining way, but, you know, I always took it as, you know, this is how you you know, [in other words, he was teaching me], you know, that, Hey, this what the world is like. BF: Yeah. Michael: And, you know, it s different now, but [ ]. I mean, he never, never, never, never complained. That s one thing about it, you know, I never heard him complain about it. But he used it as a way to tell us, or used it as a way to tell me, to get your education, to pull yourself up, pull yourself out of it. You know, nobody you know, you re going to have to do it yourself. Nobody s going to you know, you can t rely on others to do it for you. So, just a, you know, general example, you know, about how it was. BF: Oops, I lost you there. Say that again. Jan: Oh, okay. Hello? BF: Yeah? Jan: Oh, okay. BF: Can you hear me? Jan: Yes. BF: I lost Michael. I heard him say he was going to give an example. Michael: I said, no, he didn t ever give specific examples. BF: Oh.

27 Michael: He used to just tell me, you know, Hey, I had to walk a long way to work because I couldn t ride the train or the bus. Or, you know, as we were traveling like Jan said, Daddy was in the Army, so we traveled a lot. We traveled a lot, and a lot of times, you know, traveling through the South, he would tell me, you know, we would have to sometimes just have to drive a long way because we couldn t just stop anywhere. And, of course, we were too young to know it at the time. Jan: Yeah. That s [0:50:00] I don t now, he mentioned to I don t know if he told Mike about that as an adult. I don t as I say, I don t ever he didn t ever talk about those things with me growing up, because when he entered by the time I was born, the military was integrated. BF: Right. Jan: When I became an adult, there were things that he mentioned. Along the way, there are people my age, along the way, they had to be told certain things. I don t ever recall being told anything when I was little because I was always in an integrated, you know, always in an integrated [ ]. I mean, I didn t in other words, whenever I was outside playing with other military kids, there wasn t a water fountain that I couldn t drink out of. There [wasn t a park] we [ ]. And there were some kids my age who couldn t do those thing, who remember that. BF: Sure. Jan: And I never encountered that as a kid, so Daddy never had to explain those things, This why you can t do this, or this is why you can t do that. BF: Right, right. Jan: Those now, I don t know if he told Mike those things growing up. I [ ]. But I do recall, after I was grown, him mentioning things. You know, his dad had a he talked about how

28 his dad worked for a baker or a baker s shop. And his dad was very frustrated because he did the baker s books and he never could, never did get credit for that. And the baker was, you know, a [flush], I think, and he never was recognized for the work that he did, and how frustrated that made his father. BF: So, that would be Arthur? Jan: Yes. BF: Oh? So, he did that in addition to farming? Jan: Yes, yes. I think there were probably all of them had more than one job, [laughs] you know, at various times. But I know that the paternal and the maternal side, the rural life was not something that they were desiring to they desired to leave it. BF: Right, right. Jan: Yeah. BF: You know, I was I m well, it s not right to say I m impressed by but your grandfather sounds like an impressive man from the way Windy describes him, just that he, you know, worked really hard, he seems like a very he was always reading, it seems like, and at least that s what Windy mentioned, and that he yeah, he didn t own his land but he had to carry the whole family there for, keep everything going. And I didn't even know he had the jobs on the side. Jan: I don t like I said, he was a he may have I can t remember. I remember them talking about when he passed. I don t know if I was born. But we never knew him. BF: Yeah, right. Jan: We never knew him.

29 BF: Yeah. Well, thank you all so much. Is there anything else, any other story that you re interested in sharing I didn't give you a chance to, or anything else? Jan: No. I just want to leave you with what we thought about our dad. BF: Yeah. JAN: And that he was a terrific family man, and that we were, until the day he died, his priority. We were his priority. He used to buy a lottery ticket every week, and I d ask him, Daddy, what are you going to do if you hit the lottery? Oh, I m going to share it with you all. I m going to share it with you all. So, up until the day he died, we always knew that we could count on him. We always knew. There was never a doubt, ever, ever, in our minds [0:55:00] that we could not count on our dad. There were two things that we knew about him, and that was he was going to take care of us and that he did not take handouts, and we were not to take handouts. That was something that if we wanted to get on his bad side, and it was very hard to get on his bad side, but if we wanted to get on his bad side, if he knew we were out somewhere taking handouts, that boy, that would just really set him on fire! BF: Well, that s powerful. Yeah, thank you. And I can see that that has stuck with you all, you know. That s amazing. Jan: Yeah. BF: Michael or Sonya, is there anything you wanted to add? Michael: No. I would just like to know how would I go about getting a copy of the book? BF: Of this? Oh, of the book? Jan: Of the book? Yeah. BF: Of the book. Well, two ways. One is so, it s published by University of North Carolina Press, and they have a kind of new system where they basically print on demand. So, a

30 book, even an older book like this, you can order it from them online, and you ll get a new paperback copy, and they print them one-by-one. So, that s probably the easiest way to get a copy. If you want an older copy, I have one that I got on ebay. And, you know, that just was I don t know that they re not super rare, because there were quite a few of them published. So, if you wanted to find an older one, that would be the way I d suggest. Jan: Did you get hardback? BF: The old one is hardback, yeah. Jan: Okay, so you did get a hardcover? BF: Yeah. Jan: Okay. And did it have all the pages? BF: Yeah. What do you mean? Jan: The one you purchased on ebay, did it have all the pages? BF: I think so, yeah. Jan: Okay, it did. How much was it, if we may ask? BF: I think it was like twenty-five dollars. Jan: Twenty-five? BF: Yeah. Jan: Oh, okay. for yourselves. BF: Well, also, I will send you a copy of our conversation here, just so you can have that Jan: Okay. BF: Oh, and I also want to mention. So, in October, the exhibit will open it s not going to be big, but I m still excited about it in And Windy is going to come up, and I ve

31 invited Ernestine to come down, and they re going we re going to have an opening, you know, reception. And I m going to talk a little bit, and then I m going to have sort of a conversation with them, sort of like this, you know: What do you remember from Goshen, and what are your impressions of the book? And so, for whoever comes to the opening so, that will be happening. And so, I know it s a long, long way, but I wanted you to know that that is happening. Jan: What are the dates? BF: It s happening on October twenty-first, is when it opens. That s a Tuesday. But then oops, are you there? Lost you. Jan: Yes. BF: Okay. And then, on but then, it will be open, the exhibit will be here until February. Jan: Okay. BF: And then, looking ahead, this you know, that s all that s guaranteed. But looking ahead, what I m hoping to do is plan a larger exhibit. There s a museum in Charlotte that I respect a lot, called the Levine Museum of the New South. And that museum is particularly good at dealing with the history of race in the South. Jan: Oh, okay. BF: And I think it would be great to do an exhibit there. So, I applied for a grant to bring an exhibit designer into this to help plan what would be a larger exhibit. So, we ll see if I get that, but that s longer ahead. But I just that s a preview, maybe, of what might happen next. Jan: Okay. Sonya? Sonya: And the exhibit that you all are having in October, will it be videotaped?

32 BF: Uh. [1:00:00] Well, the program that s a good question. The program, the exhibit opening I wonder. I ll ask about that. I m not organizing the well, I m inviting people. I m not in charge of the program, but I m going to ask if we can videotape it, because that s a good idea. Yeah. I have a meeting Jan: Sonya? BF: Go ahead. Jan: Oh, no Sonya, I was about to say do you have any lasting impressions of Daddy? Sonya: Yes. What I want them to know is that Daddy was a very [honest] person. And I looked forward to him coming home in the evenings because my father told jokes. My sister and brother didn t know, because they had got grown and moved out. But I was still at home, and he would come home every evening and tell a joke. BF: Really? Sonya: And he would tell me about different things that he would encounter in the cab when he drove the cab. Like, certain people couldn t pay for the cab, but my daddy wouldn t fuss. He would take shoes if they gave him some shoes to pay for the ride. One guy gave him a shirt because he couldn t cover his fare, so my daddy took that. BF: Wow. help anyone. came home. Sonya: And I just wanted you to know that my father was the kind of person that would BF: That s great! So, he would do you think he would plan a joke for you every day? Sonya: Well, I don t know if it was planned, but he would always have a joke when he BF: Uh-huh. [Laughs] That s terrific! So, was he someone that

33 Sonya: And he always said, no matter when he left, if you asked him, Daddy, where are you going? He would always say, I m going to see a man about a horse. BF: [Laughs] Really? Jan: A man about what? Sonya: A horse. Jan: A horse? Sonya: Uh-huh. He d always say, I m going to see a man about a horse. And I don t know if that was his way of telling me it s none of my business, but that s what he would always say. Jan: [Laughs] BF: [Laughs] So, it was like a running joke, kind of, huh? Sonya: Um-hmm. BF: That s great. So, was he a I mean, it s very hard to summarize someone like that, but was he someone who was a lighthearted man, or joking around a lot? Or was he more of a serious? Sonya: He was a very open person, because when he drove a cab, he would his main stop would be Seven-Eleven. So, no matter what Seven-Eleven you went to in Dallas, the people would know him, because he would drink coffee and he would tell stories and tell jokes. BF: Oh, wow. Michael: [He liked corny jokes]. Sonya: Yeah. Jan: He was lighthearted and full of corny jokes. [Laughs]

34 BF: [Laughs] Corny jokes? Well, I wish I had met him. He sounds just really wonderful and interesting. Hey, did he go by R.C.? Jan: He did. Sonya: Yeah, he went by R.C., but I know the cab drivers called him Bob. BF: Oh, really? Sonya: And my mother called him by his last name, Garner. BF: Really? [Laughs] Sonya: Yes. BF: [Laughs] That s funny. Did she call all of you Garner? Sonya: No, she just called him Garner. BF: [Laughs] Just called him Garner. Michael: That s just because they met in the service. BF: Oh. Michael: [ ] So, you know, that was his [badge he had on] his shirt. BF: I see. That s interesting. What was the C for? Jan: Columbus. BF: Hmm? Jan: Columbus. BF: Columbus? Jan: Yes. BF: Oh, wow. So, it was Robert Columbus, right? Jan: Yes. Sonya: Yes.

35 BF: Okay, great. Well, again, thank you. If you think of anything else oh, I do have one other thing to tell you. But if you think of anything else, please feel free to me or call me, even if it s something small. I d be happy to hear it. You know, the exhibit is not really going to be I can t do justice to what you ve shared with me here in this small exhibit. It s not going to be life stories of everybody. But it s really helpful to me just to get a sense of these people and to see to get a sense of the richness of his life and what he passed on to you is really great and helpful to me. So, I appreciate it. So, if you think of anything else, I really would be interested. And I would like to, also, if you find photos as I said to Jan earlier, it doesn t have to be photos from Greensboro even photos of him as an adult of even later in life. I have only seen the pictures that are in the book of him. So, anything after that would be terrific anything other than that would be terrific. Jan: Okay. BF: I will need to send you a permission form so that if I did want to quote anything from this conversation I wouldn t be able to do that without this form. So, I ll send that to you for each of you, since each of you separately. Should I so, I guess I should get your mailing addresses. Would that be the best way, if I sent it to you by mail with an envelope, and you can mail it back to me? Jan: Well, can you it? Would that be fine? BF: Sure, I can it. Jan: Okay, you can that to me. [1:05:00] BF: Okay. But then, each of you well, the only problem with that is then you each need to you actually need to sign it. You want to sign it and scan it and send it back to me? Jan: Or we can mail it back.

36 BF: Okay. Jan: Okay. BF: Well, that will be great. The form will ask you for a mailing address and ask you to sign it. And then, if you could mail it back to me, that would be very great. Do you mind I can t pay the postage if I it to you. I m happy to send you a stamped envelope. Jan? Jan: Huh? won t get that. BF: I m happy to send you a stamped envelope if you d prefer, but if I it, you Jan: Oh, okay. Okay. My I can you my it s just that we re breaking up so. BF: Oh, okay. Jan: Do you want me to give you my address now, or do you just want me to text that or that to you? BF: Why don t you just give it to me now, so I have it? Jan: Okay. It s 872 Harvard, that s H-A-R-V-A-R-D, Lane., and that s Lancaster, Texas, BF: So, if I mail the three forms to you, will you be able to get them to Michael and Sonya? Or should I send them to you separately, Michael and Sonya? Michael: Oh, if you can mail them to Jan, we ll get them. BF: Okay. Alright. And then, Jan, I ll have another form that lists each of the photos that you send so that I can have permission to use those. Jan: Okay. BF: Alright? Jan: Okay.

37 BF: Well, thank you again. I ve really enjoyed talking to you. Jan: Okay. BF: Take care. Jan: You have a good evening. BF: Alright. Bye-bye. Jan: Okay. Bye-bye. [Recording ends at 1:07:00] END OF INTERVIEW Transcribed by Sally C. Council