INTERVIEW AND INTERROGATION:

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Jonah Alexander
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1 INTERVIEW AND INTERROGATION: The Basics & Beyond Sherman R. McGrew, CFE

2 Sherman R. McGrew, CFE Captain, Retired, Waterbury Police Department Connecticut, USA Lieutenant Colonel, US Army Reserves, Retired Program Analyst US Transportation Safety Administration The Hague, Netherlands

3 Why should I listen to this guy? It s a good question! Law Enforcement Background 23 years law enforcement experience Ranks of Patrolman, Det., Sgt., Lt., & Capt. Extensive financial crimes experience 1,000 s of interviews

4 Why should I listen to this guy? Military Background 31 years military experience Retiring as a Lt. Col., Reserves 3 active duty call ups, 2 combat tours in Iraq Worked with UK Civilian Police, Basra, Iraq In charge of police trainers for Basra Police

5 Why should I listen to this guy? But wait, there s more! Master of Science, Forensic Science Juris Doctor, Law Degree Admitted to Connecticut Bar, USA Admitted to Federal Bar, USA

6 Confessions are vital. Many financial crimes would not be solved without confessions. Confessions clinch the deal! Interview and Interrogation (I & I) gives you the tools you need to get confessions. I & I gets you past being stuck when a suspect denies. I & I done properly keeps you legal and correct.

7 I & I is NOT like on TV. You are never a bully! Tough guy interviewers LOSE in I & I. Tough guys don t get confessions. Do you want a confession, or do you want to feel good for 15 seconds?

8 We use I & I every day! Ever get the feeling, He s lying? Ever see someone talk and know they were lying? Odds are, you were right. This, of course, shows you how to interpret your natural instincts. Use what you already know.

9 Before you even meet the suspect: Do your homework! Don t shortchange this Common sense: Know the facts of the fraud uncovered to date. Learn something about the suspect. Check files (privacy concerns), talk to supervisors. Know as much as you can about the suspect BEFORE the interview.

10 Caution: WAR STORY! The Zoot Suit

11 You MUST be able to relate to a suspect. Feel it in your gut. Establish a rapport. Get feedback. Are you the right guy to do this interview? You can t fake it. There s a word for all this empathy. You must be able to empathize with the suspect.

12 Ideally, in an interview room No windows Small Two chairs No posters No signs Quiet Do the best you can to find a place like this

13 Be friendly. Shake hands. Make small talk on way to interview room. Look for signs of stress. They have been up all night can t sleep. Suspect may ask questions early They want to know what you know! It s always an interview, never an interrogation.

14 What is his/her upbringing? Religious? Moral or amoral? What do they care about? Family? Reputation? In short, what makes them tick?

15 This one is easy! You and the suspect. Two s company, three s a crowd. You can t build a rapport with three. One on one allows you to understand. Confessing to one person is hard enough.

16 Another easy one! Never! Okay, emergencies (real ones) only. Interruptions will cost you confessions. Small glass window in door. Signal if they need you to come out. Interruptions set you back, WAY back. They will always come at the worst time.

17 Caution: WAR STORY! The Murder Suspect

18 Know your legal responsibilities for where you are. Criminal consequences? Are you an agent of the police? Rights warnings necessary? What if they ask for a lawyer? What if they ask YOU if they NEED a lawyer? They should come of their own free will. They are free to leave at any time.

19 It s not like on TV. Lawyers will almost never let guilty clients (or innocent ones, for that matter) talk to you. If lawyers get involved, your chance for a confession is near zero. Make them decide if they want a lawyer! Do I need a lawyer? Answer: I would never advise anyone not to have a lawyer.

20 Before you start the interview They understand they are free to leave They understand they can get a lawyer They are there of their own free will Get it in writing (and signed) and then put it out of sight!

21 It s an accusation. I want to talk to you about some of the money that you needed to use from the safe. Reactions? They may confess right then and there. But more likely, the innocent will get mad. But so do the guilty!!! You can calm the guilty down quickly because they are faking their anger.

22 Anything but a No is a YES! Watch out for qualified answers Did you take the money? Did I take the money? No. (He s telling you someone did!) Repeating the question back to you Do you know how the theft happened? Do I know how the theft happened? Not really. Gives time to think. The innocent don t need time!

23 Watch out for trigger words Not stole, but needed Not larceny, but took Not embezzled, but fudged the books Stole/larceny/embezzled = JAIL Needed/took/fudged = MISTAKES

24 Ask yourself: What s Easier to Admit??? I made a mistake when I fudged the books because I really needed the money that I took OR I m a thief who knowingly committed larceny when I stole from the company that has treated me so very well and I deserve to go to jail.

25 How to minimize the actions of the suspect Everyone s taken something from work Cops take things from work It s just a matter of degree You re not the first one in the world You were going to pay it back, right?

26 All interviewees are under stress. The guilty are under really great stress. They need to know what you know to lie effectively. The guilty are thinking a mile a minute. The innocent don t have to think so hard. It couldn t have been you because when the theft took place you were at the local bar? Then you saw the fire across the street, right? (Got ya!)

27 Never interrupt a suspect. Learn to be a good listener. What are they REALLY saying? What words are they using? When they stop, let the silence lie there. This builds pressure. This works for you.

28 Big manila folder LOTS of papers Suspect name on front and type of investigation where they can read it upside down Video tapes

29 Know that you never get the full story ever. Something is always left out. I was once told, Information is like money in the bank. You never close the account and you always leave something for emergencies. Know the elements of the fraud you are asking about. Get the suspect to admit to the necessary elements.

30 Don t gloat when they confess. They can smell that a mile away and will shut up. You will then never get a written statement. If you have done the interview correctly, you feel guinenly sorry for the suspect. Ask them if they are sorry. Ask them if they will ever do it again. Sounds silly, but it helps get you the written confession.

31 You write it out. The sentences in the statement must include the elements of the fraud. Example: When you found out how much money you owed, there was no other way out? If he/she agrees, write that out in the first person Read it through together. Have them read some aloud and make corrections. Get a witness to the suspect s signing the confession.

32 Moods change, protect the employer/victim. If serious enough, recommend the suspect is immediately escorted out of the building. Employers can t believe it! Get keys and access badges. Lots of damage can be done in a short period of time. Don t leave a suspect alone after a confession!

33 A fraud has been committed. The facts of the fraud show that only an employee/insider could have done it. There are possible suspects. There is no way you have enough time to interview them all in depth. What do you do?

34 You interview each of them for 5 or less minutes! The goal is not to find the guilty party at this stage! The goal is to eliminate the innocent! You can do this interview for 50 suspects in one morning. At the end, you will have about 6 good suspects.

35 1. Have you heard about the theft that took place? 2. What do you know about it? Watch their demeanor as they relate what they know. 3. When you first heard about this theft, who came to mind? The innocent may be reluctant to name names. This is normal. But they thought of someone when they heard about it. The suspected will keep it vague: It could have been anyone.

36 4. Who do you think is the most unlikely person to have done this? Same as before. Innocent give names. Suspected keep it vague. 5. What should happen to this person that did this? Innocent = They should go to jail! 10 years! In the electric chair! Suspected= They should definitely pay the money back.

37 The same suspect names will keep popping up! People always know! The same with the least likely to have done it names. You will end up with a much smaller pool of suspects at the end of the day. Now go use your I & I tools for more extensive interviews!

38 Interviewing suspects is an art It takes time Be yourself Sympathize Minimize Empathize Get the confession! It works! You can do it!

39 QUESTIONS???

40 Association of Certified Fraud Examiners, Certified Fraud Examiner, CFE, ACFE, and the ACFE Logo are trademarks owned by the Association of Certified Fraud Examiners, Inc. The contents of this paper may not be transmitted, re-published, modified, reproduced, distributed, copied, or sold without the prior consent of the author.

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