SHALERSVILLE TOWNSHIP TRUSTEES Special Zoning Workshop. 7:30 P.M. February 13, 19

Transcription

1 SHALERSVILLE TOWNSHIP TRUSTEES Special Zoning Workshop 7:30 P.M. February 13, 19 A Special Zoning Workshop for the Shalersville Township Trustees, Shalersville Township Board of Zoning Appeals, and the Shalersville Township Zoning Commission was held in the Town Hall meeting room with Ronald Kotkowski, and John Kline, from here on out will be addressed as the BOT(Board of Trustees). The purpose of the workshop is for our zoning board and board of zoning appeals. Others present: Maude Bias, Greg Benner, Chuck Casalicchio. Chuck Kollman, Greg DeVos, Brian Hirsch, Dan Denzinger, Todd Lamb, Nathan Goodell, Todd Brugmann, and Benjamin Kotkowski. Guest Speaker, Christopher Meduri, Portage County Assistant Prosecuting Attorney. Dan Denzinger led the Pledge of Allegiance. John Kline welcomed all to the zoning workshop. And wanted to establish that this meeting was called for the purpose of a workshop for the zoning boards and the trustees will not be making any decisions nor introducing any township business at this meeting. We will have no set agenda. This will be a question and answer session, for examples on the zoning book, how to run a meeting, or any discussions from your prior meetings, or any questions you feel you need answers to. John opened the floor for questions: Ronald Kotkowski: Zoning question: This is a good general zoning question. Nick Ellert is on the Zoning board in Mantua Township. Someone presented to Mantua Trustees wanting to put a sign up on township property and the trustees approved it. The concerns Nick had with it, was that it did not meet their zoning code for the township and was in violation of their own zoning code. Nick s thought was why didn t the trustee s let the people go through the normal process of applying for a permit and having a variance before the trustee s approved it? And felt it looked bad for the zoning board and for the township. Chris, if you some thoughts on that. Chris Meduri: Here is the rule on that. Usually, a government is not exempt from zoning, but the rule on that is technically you don t have to go before the board of appeals, what you are supposed to do, ie: Let s say the county owns a parcel of land in Shalersville and say they want to put in a water plant, what they do is try to comply with zoning as best they can, but if it doesn t fit zoning, then basically after they try and work with the zoning inspector, if you can t reach out and resolve it, it ends up in court and what the court will look at is where is the greater good. Is it in enforcing the zoning and preventing the use that is not allowed in zoning or is the greater good in allowing a use in which zoning doesn t allow it. A classic case is years ago they wanted in Cleveland, in a residential district they wanted to put a fire station and the fire station wasn t allowed in zoning and the residential people tried to stop it. It went all the way to the Supreme Court and the court said the greater good was having a fire station in the residential district. So it is like a balancing test. You are not totally exempt, so if you want to put like a garbage pit in residential district, the greater good would probably not be served by doing that. So the zoning probably would be enforced. So when it comes to government land, zoning is a touchy one. As for the Mantua one, I heard that the signs were allowed on public property, it is just you had to meet the setbacks. For whatever the reason this one didn t meet the zoning code. Nick was just upset that the trustees did it on their own without saying go to the zoning inspector. This wasn t a government agency it was individuals who wanted to put a sign on township property. Nick s complaint to the trustees was why didn t you just let this play out the way it should have played out, anybody that wants to put a sign anywhere should follow zoning and if they can t go for an appeal and then if they can t the trustees could change that if they wanted to, that was his complaint that they didn t do any of that and he thought it just set a bad precedent for the township. That if you knew somebody you didn t have to worry about zoning. The only saving part of that is, it s on government property and your right people are going to say, why; can the government do it and I can t. But essentially, the law allows it, I am not saying it is the way it should be, but again something like that, there is a little bit of unfairness in that, because it is government land. But if it was real close to the road and it became a safety hazard that would be a problem. I don t know, I assume it didn t meet the zoning requirements, because of setbacks. But they allowed it. I think it was a setback problem. I know some jurisdictions just have them go through the BZA, technically you don t have to go through the BZA if you are another government entity. Like the Park District about 15 years ago went through Ravenna Township BZA and they got their variance, but they put them through the wringer and I remember speaking with Chris Craycroft, She did above and beyond by doing that, but technically she didn t have too. So the law is kind of screwy when it comes to another political subdivision, in that you really don t have to go through the zoning process when it comes to like the BZA, but you do have to try and work with the zoning inspector. Greg Benner: So you re talking about the Parks and Recreation, they just built a facility down the street from here. So they don t have to adhere to our zoning regulations per say and they don t have to follow our guidelines.

2 They need to make a good faith attempt to comply, let s say they want to build a structure all things being equal, if they can do it by meeting your setbacks, they should meet your setbacks rather than just disregard them. But say if it is a situation where they just can t meet the setback, maybe for whatever reason, lots not big enough, and then maybe they would need an area variance, if they were like a private party, in that case what the case law says is when another political subdivision, whether it is the Park District, the County, municipality or another township if it owns land in another township they don t have to go through the zoning process like to the BZA. They should go to the zoning inspector and try to make it fit. And if it can reasonably be fit they should do it. They can t just blow you off, but if there is an impasse, where between your zoning and what they want to do. If it ends up in court and what the court is going to look at is, where is the greater good. Is it in enforcing the zoning or is it in allowing the other political subdivision to do what they want to do. So, what would I do at that point? Saying that if I didn t agree with what they are doing would I present it to the Trustees and tell them that this is what they want to do and they don t want to work with me, they don t agree to this, and I don t feel comfortable with it, I feel like they should be adhering to the zoning. How does that process take place going forward as far as the next step? Is there a specific issue? No. The Park and Recreation have acquired more land in the township. So they are pretty good size land holder. The problem they would have. Any other political subdivision is on the building department end, because the building department is going to want to see the zoning certificate. So, though they don t have to go to the BZA to get a variance, other townships in situations like that have just almost viewed it, not as exempt but just the permit saying your another political subdivision, here is your zoning certificate even though you don t necessarily comply, like a private party would. Would you recommend that? Would I? It s either that, or if there is an impasse where you say, I am just not going to issue a zoning certificate and they can t get their building permit. Then ultimately, if they want to do the project we are going to end up in court. And then the court is going to decide where is the greater good, in allowing the project as they want it, or enforcing the zoning and making them comply. So, it is always best to avoid that. It is best to try and negotiate with them to get as close to zoning as possible. So the onus is on me to try and figure it out, I really don t handle that off to these guys and say this is what I have I want you guys to let me know how you want me to pursue this. If I am against it I am against it, you guys don t think we should be against it, then I am good with that. I think in that case since you are dealing with another government entity, it would probably be a good idea to run it past the trustee s. Yes, that is where it belongs. Yes, otherwise it would almost be like a dictatorship if the zoning inspector would deny them and they wouldn t have other options to go forward. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think Shalersville has a track record of working together and getting along, I don t feel we have had any problems with the zoning boards. Yes, I think that is something you could work out if it is within reason. If it is a use you really don t want, I can think of maybe like an incinerator plant, say if the State of Ohio wanted to put in something you really don t want, I think comes a time and place you really do need to fight things out. For example, in Rootstown with the Neo-med expansion, they didn t fit their zoning code until they amended it. Rootstown granted the exemption, but, and this is something you don t want to make a practice of, is they hit them with zoning fees. We did update our zoning fees, comparable with surrounding areas. You will need to be careful applying fees, for example cities can apply fees for the medical marijuana facilities, where townships cannot. Greg DeVos: Zoning Appeals Question: When you are doing a Land Use Variance and the stipulations in our book, is that a guideline? Let s say they don t like the stipulations for the land use variance are they guidelines? Those are the standards they have to be applied, if they don t like them. Those are the law. They need to be applied and they need to be met. If they can t meet them it needs to be denied. So, like a use variance, as we talked about in the past it should be very rare, only if they cannot have any viable use of

3 the land in the zoning code, should a use variance be granted. If the zoning code allows a viable use, even though it might not be the use they want. What about the stipulations for the use? You mean the conditions you put on it? I mean what is in the book, is that a guideline? No, what is in your book, again I would want to see what you specifically mean. But if your referring to the standards, that they have to show evidence to meet this, that and the other, then they have to actually have to meet those standards. And if they cannot meet the standards in your book, you should deny it. But you re talking about the standards of the variance, but not meeting the exact code because they are there for a variance because they don t meet the code, right? When, you mention a use variance which is an actual use of the land, as opposed to an area variance which would be like setback or lot size. For the use of the land, the use they want it, they have different stipulations in the code. You mean conditional use permits? You want me to just say what I am thinking? Over there at the Used Car Lot. That was a conditionally permitted use. Right, I thought they should have a fence around it for the junk cars. And they told me this was just a guideline. Is it a guideline? Again, I would want to see it is written, but if it is like a specific requirements for a car dealership, then they have to meet those. So, if the book states they have to have buffering or fencing then that should be applied, as part of a conditional use you can go above and beyond what is in the book. But not under what is in the book? Well, you should make them satisfy all the requirements in the book. They should, you guys don t realize how much power you have as a board of appeals. There is a lot of should in appeals. In the zoning book there are a lot of you shall do this. It is way more cut and dry, I think, for the zoning board than it is for board of appeals because there is a lot of what you should do. But you are there to make a decision that sometimes doesn t fit into the box. That is why the trustees trust you to make a good decision. Is that right or wrong? They need to follow the book. But when it comes to questions of interpretation, you are like a judge you are following the law, but sometimes the law is not always crystal clear. So, we should not be worried about the hardship case then? If they can t afford it. No, I know this sounds harsh but an applicant s financial difficulties shouldn t enter into it. It is just whether or not they can meet your zoning book. Now we all know in the big picture, sometimes as Ron is saying, you need to do what you think is right, you have to apply the book, but sometimes you know deep down what you probably should do. That is why you should always respect for each other when you don t agree with each other. You don t know deep down what is in everyone. I always respect everyone, even if I disagree with them, just because they just have a difference of opinion. And we respect your decisions. One of my main things is it the law or is it guidelines. Your zoning book is the law. I would need to see specifics. Let me say something on that. So under used car lots, there is certain requirement that they need to meet. Well, it s not the used cars, it is the junk vehicles. It is in there, that there should be fenced or screening.

4 The fencing is the requirements. And then in addition to that we can add other conditions on that, which we did. But those that are in the book, I think should be followed if it is a conditional use permit. Chuck Casalicchio: You can also take into consideration if it is coming on winter and they can t be doing certain things in the winter, you can say in 6 months from now it has to be done. Yes, that is reasonable. I think that is what the BZA did. What was that for? What was the reason you gave them the 6 months, was it for winter purposes? Brian Hirsch: They were given until June 2019, due to weather. Chuck C: The junk cars have to be out of sight and behind the building with a limit of how many are allowed. And they are putting up a privacy fence. Your book won t cover everything, and that is where the BZA can do what you think is best. I think if it is in your zoning book you should adhere to that. That is the reason we decided to have these seminars, because we saw that some of the variances, the board wasn t aware that they could put on these conditions. It is important that you know what your parameters are and what you can ask for. Because, the BZA, can ask for a lot more, than what zoning could ever ask for. You have negotiating abilities, as where the zoning board has to follow the law. And basically the wording is fair. Is that correct Chris, when they put reasonable conditions on? That gives them a lot of flexibility, because what we might think is reasonable, I am sure they may not. But if the board feels that way, it is the way it needs to be. Yes, reasonable and fair. The Board makes that call. Ultimately, you are the judge on that. Brian H: Will those conditions go away, if the property changes hands? That is where, when you grant your conditional uses, be specific if you want that to run with the land, regardless of who owns it. You will want to protect yourself, the current owner may be good, but you don t know who the future owner will be. I think you may want to put in there that this runs with the land. Or if you don t want it to run with the land, you can put in there that if you sell it the new owner will need to come back to the BZA for a new variance. I was under the assumption; once you gave the permitted use it followed the land always. Variances run with the land. Permitted uses run with the land. Conditionally permitted uses, you can make that a reasonable condition if you want to protect the township. So it is only for conditionally permitted uses. Not for variances. Yes, once you grant a variance it is there forever regardless of the owner that is why you want to be careful in granting those. That is why you probably would want to take caution with a use permit because once it is given it is golden. Yes, with a use variance. Should that be in our zoning book? It could, but if it is not you could still make it a reasonable condition. Most owners would probably agree to that when they want to get their conditional use. And if they are willing to agree to that make it a part of the minutes that the applicant agreed to this being just specific to them and that if they sell it that the agree the new owners have to come before the BZA. And if the new owner comes before you and is reputable then I think it should just be a continuation of the conditional use of the new owner. It would be hard pressed to deny it with a pretty good reason. Like if you knew somebody was coming into town that had a terrible reputation and no business getting the conditional use extended to them, I think you could just say no and take your chances in court. If you really knew somebody was going to be bad news. Which I believe would be a rare instance. Let me give you an example I don t think your book covers that in Palmyra, Somebody wants to put in a truck stop and they want it to be like a stop on the turnpike with a restaurant, a rest area and the pumps and places for the pumps and maybe a place for the trucks. It is in their commercial district, so they allow

5 the restaurants, and service stations. But they don t have any type of multi-use type provision, like Brimfield has multiple type uses, so you can have a shopping plaza. So, let s say if a shopping plaza wanted to come into Shalersville, does your book allow multiple uses on the same lot. Usually it s one principle structure per lot. Palmyra doesn t have one, they have a provision that similar uses must go before the zoning commission. They are talking with Todd Peetz, and probably have them submit a site plan to the zoning commission and Todd will work with them. I don t think we address that. That is something the zoning commission would do. Can you send recommendations to Nathan on that. There book just happens to say that. It might be better though, that if you want to allow multi use site, like a shopping center, you may want to make that a conditional use in your commercial district so the BZA could actually review that. Bottom line is you want to have some type of control over that. In our commercial district, we have the design guidelines the zoning board handles those. Does that cover any of that? I am looking at the uses. Does your book cover anything about multi use sites? I don t think so, but you can add it as a conditional use? Would you do it under conditional use or under design guidelines? The design guidelines are not for uses. It is more for structures, architecture, looks. The BZA would have the more enforcement authority, so they would be the better one to review that. You never know, you might have something come in that is a multiuse. Some of the newer books for the townships have it in there under conditional uses. So you could put it in a couple of different districts, like Commercial, Neighborhood Commercial, and Light Industrial. If you could send it to the zoning board we could look at that. You would want to go through Todd and look at what other townships have done. Brimfield and Rootstown are pretty good I can send you that one because they are newer books. Tell us the difference with what Rootstown did with their design guidelines, because didn t they put it in their zoning book. I thought there was a difference in how they did it. I seemed to recall in a letter from you that the way they did it, it was a little bit more unforceful than the way we did it. I would have to review that, I can t recall. To be honest, there isn t a whole lot of enforcement ability in those. I am glad they work with you. Those are just that, guidelines at least for a township. Question: So we had a trailer park expansion, in the end it went through the BZA. I think they did a very good job on the pretense these guys were very professional and negotiable they knew what they were going to get, the automatic 35 percent without really doing anything. Which is really my question? You thought the 35 percent was high and I agreed. You told me most townships were 20 or maybe 25% and that is a number we could manipulate to make what we want. With all that being said we do have another trailer park, but I am pretty sure it is land locked. This doesn t mean, it couldn t be extended, at some point someday. And it s a terrible trailer park; I would hate to see it expanded. That is my question, should we address lowering our number allowed for expansion. But they don t own any property around it right now. If they don t own any property around it now, it is a moot point. But they could buy a piece of property. I don t think so, I think what Chris stated was it has to be the original parcel for expansion. Correct, usually the non-conforming use should be limited to the existing lot. So if they bought another lot, the BZA would have to deny the expansion. Do you think we should look at that number to protect ourselves in the future? I do, ultimately that is up to the township, and most books say non-conforming use, one time expansion up to 20% of the existing area. That is up to the township how much you want to go. Remember for non-conforming use the whole goal is that use will eventually conform to your zoning code and it withers and dies. So it is limited to the expansion. But that would be a township decision. But with mobile home parks, probably the smaller you have the better.

6 But if they have all expanded as much as they can, do we need to worry about it? Well, if they are land locked, then no but if there is any adjoining property that they could buy. So, they can add on if they buy property? Technically no, the non-conforming use is limited to the lot it s on. But to avoid problems it is best to have your books clear if you don t want any big expansion. To have your book state, one time expansion up to 20% of the existing lot. When should the BZA consider they may go to court and need detailed minutes? When you had the tar plant that wanted to come in, they brought their own court reporter, so we were able to obtain transcribed minutes from them. If they don t bring one, it is a decision you need to think if you should retain the recording or not. Question: What is your advice when a BZA hearing starts to get contentious for the Chairman? Take charge that is your meeting. Don t let it get out of hand, be firm and if people don t respond, remember they can t disrupt a public meeting. You can tell them to leave or call the sheriff, if needed. Just remember it is a public meeting and they can t disrupt the process, the whole system falls apart at that point. And try to keep only one conversation going, if you get side conversations the minutes can get in disarray and get quite confusing. Brian H: Can you go into executive session at that time? No, you can t. You don t ever want to use the word executive session, because it doesn t apply. But technically you can deliberate in private, you want that to be real rare, we did that for the asphalt hearing and the guy made an issue of it. But there is a court case that says since the BZA is like a quasijudicial body, you can actually act like a judge and jury would and deliberate in private. But this should be rare. We have also limited the public comments to after all the information is in, we deliberate and then take the public comments. When I applied for a variance in Mantua Village, they took all my information, no other public was there to speak for or against. They said ok that is all and we will send you a letter, they never made the vote, in front of me at all and just sent me a letter later on the results. Is this common? are. I don t know if it is common. Most townships will vote on the spot. I don t know what their rules Are you saying they just wanted to deliberate in private? It is one thing to deliberate in private, but you generally want to come back out and do your vote in public. Just like in an executive session for the trustees, a BZA cannot go into executive session but they can deliberate in private that is what you want to call it. We are going to move to deliberate in private. Then after you reach your decision, come back out and then make your vote in public. Because you are technically still a Does it have to be at the same public meeting? It doesn t necessarily have to be at the same meeting, but it should be at a public meeting. So, they would have to re-advertise and do the end of the public meeting again. I don t think you have to advertise again, but I think it is a good idea to advertise again. But if the hearing is done and all they need to do is to reach their decision, if they have a regularly scheduled public meeting, say next month, you can come back and do that next month and just make your vote part of that. I think it is best to just vote on it the night of the public meeting, Since the BZA only meets on as needed basis. So what is the process after you obtain the information, one of the members makes a motion to go into private deliberations? Yes, they could. But that should be really rare. But if they had to do that, does it need a motion? All the Chair needs to do is say we are going to go deliberate in private. You really don t need a motion. Just make it part of the record that the chair stated we are going to deliberate in private. Just use those words. Deliberate in private not executive session and then when your done come back out on the

7 record and then do your roll call vote or work through your standards, if you are to grant or deny a variance and then make it part of the record. So let s say there is disagreement in the board when they go back and do their meeting and maybe they are not comfortable coming back out and making that decision, at that point can they table it and tell the applicants, at this point in time a decision cannot be reached. Would that be the thing to do? If you want to table it until a later date you can do that. Some BZA hearings have gone on several months in complex situations. That is rare. How long can they table it for? The law doesn t really say. I think, since you meet on call, you would just arrive at a new date that is good for everyone, whether it is next month or two months. I don t think you would want to go too far out in the future. Cause the applicant needs to know. At that point they can ask for more information? Yes, you can continue it to get whatever you need. If you don t have what you need, do that. It is better to have everything you need than to make a decision. Yes, don t feel you need to make a decision, if something doesn t feel right. Greg Kollman: All of our meetings are recorded and the tapes are destroyed after it is on paper, should we keep the tapes? If you know you are going to have a case that is going to end up in court, I would suggest you keep it awhile. Because in the Brimfield case what had happened the attorney for Echo side the telecommunications company he brought a court reporter and went down to the township and from the minutes recorder and prepared their own transcript, it was kind of tough because the court reporter wasn t at the hearing and just trying to go from a recording that you couldn t hear everything that took place like several months ago is kind of tough. But having this, definitely keep it, it s better than having nothing. So even though we have retention policies that state, once the minutes are approved in writing, we can destroy the recording, even if we have that in place in all our boards. It is still a good idea to save the recording, the ones that are maybe contentious like you say. Just to protect yourself from the sunshine standpoint if your retention policy states you recycle it or you destroy it after whatever. You are fine from the sunshine public records standpoint. But just from a litigation standpoint. If you just have minutes and the minutes might not catch everything. And there might be something on the recording that supports what the BZA did and without having that the minutes might leave something out, because that sometimes happens and then it almost weakens your case, when you could have done everything perfectly good and had a real good hearing, it s just that the minutes don t reflect that. The last thing we can to see is you do everything right, but because you don t have a record of it the court might set that aside. Chuck K: What about going to the next step a video? Video, we don t use that in court. We do for evidentiary purposes, but from a record standpoint, the verbatim transcript is what the court wants to see in written word. You don t even need to attend a meeting; you can watch the video and bring a case. I am not a big fan of video that is a personal thing, if you want to do that it is fine. If it is that important, then come to a meeting like all of you are here. Organizational meetings, the Trustees have one at the first of the year. But the BZA only meet as needed, which could be three months into the year. They have one next week, correct. Is it a good practice to have time set aside in January to do one and get it over with? What we have done before is set it up in conjunction with a BZA meeting. That is an in house matter; the law doesn t require the BZA to have that in January like some boards have to have their organization meetings at the first of the year. For the BZA there is nothing that says that, so if you want to do that it is fine, if you don t it s not a violation of law. You could wait until your first meeting of the year or whatever works. As far as if the BZA denies a variance, there is a 30 day window for an applicant to file an appeal. Is the 30 days from the time of the meeting or the minutes being accepted? Good question; it is the time of when the minutes are approved that is when they become official. They have 30 days to appeal once they minutes are approved. So if we had a contentious BZA meeting it might be a good idea to go ahead and set a meeting for the next month.

8 Maude: The last BZA meeting was October 3 rd with Evergreen s approved variance and those minutes have not been approved or signed. Well it is up to you that is kind of a long time. We are kind of doing it by feel here. Wait a couple months to see if something pops up and by three months, probably should have the minutes approved and documented. If it was a contentious case, do it immediately, could you do it the following week or next day if your minutes are written. To get the minutes approved to limit the time span for appeals. Brian H: Wouldn t they need to be on paper? I would think it would have to. Yes, you would want to do that. Brian H: You would need to have the ten day advance notice for a public meeting for approval of the minutes. You would only need a quorum for the meeting to approve minutes. Dan: We were talking before the meeting; you guys were talking about Home Rule. Yes, there is a limited home rule, something that is allowed in the State of Ohio but in order for a township to do that, it gives a township a right to charge taxes and things like that. I don t think it is anything that Shalersville residents want. You have to have an administrator, a police department same as with the fire department. There are a lot of stipulations you have to have a certain population, assets of 3.5 million or something like that. There is a lot to it but it gives the township and makes it a little bit more like a city, and they have a little bit more power. But one of the powers we have without home rule because we have the port authority we do have the right to negotiate tax abatement which we exercised with the Swagelok property. I just went to the class to learn about it. I didn t know much about it and thought it might be interesting. There are a lot of good classes and I suggested at the last trustees meeting it might be good for next year that we have the zoning inspector and the head of the zoning boards to give them the opportunity to go to the Ohio Township Association meeting in Columbus, because there are a lot of good seminars you could learn a lot. They also have a trade show, I also want the road supervisor to go. We also have a zip drive with all the seminars, if anyone is interested in looking at them. It just goes through like a PowerPoint presentation of what we went through without the discussions. Obviously the PowerPoint touches on the talking points and doesn t give the feel of the meeting. But there is still information there. drives. The discussions add a lot to the meeting, but you can look at the PowerPoint. There are two zip Question: So when you were talking about the cell tower company. I get a lot of phone calls since we have a lot of cell towers, everybody has cell towers and all new different cell companies and entities a lot of them are subbed out to what might have been to AT&T and now it is whoever s. The main question I get is what are your fees and what permits do we have to file? They come in about once a year, maybe sometimes six months and they redo whatever they have up there, they upgrade their stuff so they are always upgrading it. So I feel, since I have been getting all these phone calls that other people are charging them to do this, we don t have a permit fee for one the Light Industrial cell towers are excluded from me I can t control those, the ones in the Residential District we do have power over, but with that being said is it fair and do other townships charge annual fees like if these people are coming in and reworking on their towers and upgrading their equipment, because I get a lot of phone calls and I feel it is a place I can generate some money fairly for the township without effecting the residents. That is a good question. I don t know off hand I would have to look if others have added it to the newer books; I know the older books don t allow it. I am interested because the first question they ask is what is your fee? I tell them we do not have one and they say can you send me a confirmation . Which that leads me to believe that others have the fees. I just wanted to look into it. One other thing, I had actually talked with the zoning board a while back about some of our agricultural regulations after going through some of them, beyond five acres it s all ORC, I understand that. But I do know they allow the townships and municipalities the flexibility of five acre and under to do as we want in general regards. After going through some of ours and experiencing some of the stuff, I felt and recommended to our board that I think we needed to look at, in my opinion, I felt the five acre and under should, they are not farming for a living yea they are agricultural cause they have a couple horses but in my view it s not a farm or a money making deal it is more of a hobby and I feel like the setbacks and the building size are very lenient areas for these people and I feel they should adhere to our normal five acre and under setbacks for building size and lot size as far as for setbacks because they can technically build on a two acres they can build their structure from boundary to boundary as big as they want I don t feel that is fair. I just want to get your opinion on it and what you think about that.

9 Ultimately it is up to each township. But you are right the law allows a township to regulate under five acres by setback, size of the building and height. And it is way more control less than one acre, you can control pretty much anything. What I am saying in general the state allows more regulation under one acre and limited amount under five acres. Yes, you can do animal husbandry under one acre, you can prohibit like raising chickens or whatever, but I am not saying you want to do that. I am not saying to do that either, but Shalersville did. Again, that is up to the township. So that is more of a township call, nobody has a set in stone on that. No, some of the more urban townships do regulate pretty well under five acres with sizes of the buildings, setbacks and what have you. Some of the more rural ones don t. So it is up to each township whatever you think works best. So it is probably best for building size and setbacks for under five acres in limiting what you can raise on those five acres. That is not what we are talking about. You cannot do it, it is only for setbacks and size between one and five acres. Nathan: Question: Earlier you were talking about proceedings for BZA meetings to some of those apply for the Public Zoning Commission meetings for our zoning codes and making our votes. You as the Zoning Commission cannot deliberate in private, because you are not a quasi-judicial body, you re a recommending body to the trustees. You always got to be in public session, but when it comes to keeping control of the meeting, likewise if somebody gets out of hand you have the right to set the law down and keep them in line. One other question: As far as trustees go and the zoning board I have always heard from you and others, stand back and let them do their job. Is that still good advice? Yes, there are some townships when some trustees attended BZA hearings and ask the BZA to deny a variance. So that is certainly something you do not want to do. I realize they are speaking as a private person, but remember you are always a trustee. It is best to always watch. Various opinions help matters, when I was on the BZA, I went in to meetings thinking I was sure how I was going to vote then after hearing other opinions and thought oh, even if it goes against what others are saying, always speak your mind, don t be afraid to speak up. It can and does make a difference. One thing that happened in the past on the BZA, a member went on someone s property without permission and I think that could be a real problem. When a hearing is coming up and you re looking at a piece of property look at it from the road. Would that be the same as going through a trailer park if they wanted expansion? I don t know if that is a public road or a private road. Or, if you have permission, then it s fine. Sometimes if somebody wants a variance, they might invite you come and take a look at the project. But without permission it is a real no-no to go on the property. Even going to look at the property prior to the meeting, I heard that was no-no. Yes, it is not allowed for the BZA because you are the judge and by doing that you become a witness and you can t do both. But if you want to do a jury view, during a BZA hearing if you want to go out and look as a group, then you can say hey applicant we would like to go as a group and visit the property and take the hearing out there and then you can do that. You do have to obtain their permission to do that. You can t force that. If you are driving by and see something that may sway your opinion notify the applicant and let the applicant respond to what you saw. We have the right to face our accusers so if you become a witness, you want to give the other side a chance know what you saw so they can rebut you. So who knows what you saw maybe something when they explain might change your mind. That is the whole idea you don t want to do an independent investigation because the other side doesn t know how to counter that. So the whole key is to get everything out on the table. So if you do happen to look by chance, pictures are great and remember you have the authority to, if you need to bring in a consultant to say somebody with expertise knowledge, whether it s like a landscape specialist you can charge that to the applicant because the revised code says the BZA and Zoning Commission to can make the applicant pay for any expert consultants you might need to make an informed decision. So if you have a big project

10 going someday, if you need to go outside and bring in some heavy duty planners to help you, you charge them. We didn t know that, because when that came up, remember when you had the variance from them and they was talk about soil, and berming and all that sort of things. So, the BZA could say we need to hire a consultant to see how this will impact us. Yes, and that you are going to charge it as part of your fees and you also have subpoena power, technically the BZA has the power to subpoena witnesses and is very, very rare. But if you ever need us to subpoena somebody, then I can get one from the court and actually have the sheriff serve this person and make them come to the meeting, that is going to be very rare. But if you ever have a big hearing where you need to have everything out on the table who knows before something goes in there that you don t want. What about using google earth? Well, if you going to use google earth make that an exhibit and allow the applicant the opportunity to say, let me explain what you are seeing. It is again making yourself a witness, any information you gather outside of the hearing and it left an impression on you, bring it to the hearing and make it part of the record and let the other side respond. So, you are saying it is best not to do that? I know it is human nature we are what we are and we want to find things out before we have the hearing. So here is the thing in a small township, you are going to know it. Most of us have been around the area and won t be completely unbiased. Because chances are we have already driven by it. I would think that having google earth on every appeal would be a good thing. So everybody can see what is going on. Most of those applicants do bring it. Part of the argument against that is, like the right to privacy. Some of our zoning is based on what you can see from a neighbor s property for the road. And when you start going over head and taking pictures, I think you are bordering on intrusion of privacy, in my opinion. According to the ORC, I think it is now on one of the classes I attended was on drones, that from 400 and up is not your property anymore and 400 and below is an intrusion of your privacy. So if you are going to employ a drone they have to be above 400. As far as google earth goes that is not in the privacy space. Does that fit into this? Yes, it does when you go that high its plan view just like with the police helicopter or airplanes doing over a marijuana field if you are high enough that is all fair game. You don t need a warrant for that. Your right you don t want to get to close, but if you re high enough it is fair game. I brought this up before, if you have a 15 year old neighbor kid and you have a two story house and have an upstairs bathroom without a curtain because you can t see it from the road and you have a 15 year old daughter in there taking a shower and the kid from next door has his drone looking in the window. When you are inside your house, then that is sacred that would be an invasion. If it is in plain view outside without any structure, then its fair game for law enforcement. Rootstown was thinking of getting a drone for a problem property, that whenever the zoning inspector went to the property the owner would get a little contentious, and to avoid anyone from getting carried away or a breach of the peace, should we just get a drone and go over the property that way. I was thinking for zoning purposes, I don t know if we want to go that way yet. But I think in the big scheme of things. Ben Kotkowski: We had discussed putting that in our zoning book to not allow that, whatsoever to use drones as an inspection tool for the privacy issues. That is something a township could do. You can do it legally but if you want them to go above and beyond and say we are not going to do it. Greg: You mean us as a township not to use a drone as an inspection tool. Would that fall under the zoning or the trustee s? Well we would ultimately have to approve it. The zoning board is the recommendation board.

11 I don t know if that would be good, given our technology and advances to limit our township. We re not using as a privacy issue; we would be using it as a tool like google does and everybody else. They are not using it to spy on your daughter; they are using it as a professional tool. Yes, we would really have to think about that. Also on that note, it has always been out of sight out of mind in zoning. I can see both sides. To a point, but like the Red Fox area in Aurora East complaints I get is it might be out of sight to me but it s not out sight to the neighbor that buts up to them. Yes, but you can go on the neighbor s property look and see their complaint. That is different. But I mean technically in our book it says out of sight from the road. But if a neighbor gives you permission you can go on and look at it and use that as a tool. Yes, but I don t like getting into a neighbors dispute. So this is a good discussion that is why zoning should be local. Cause you should decide what you want to do or not. And I hear what you are saying with the zoned thing, I know technology is what it is but it is a question as to how many cases do we want to end up in court. That is up to the township. If the zoning is here to help neighbors get along with each other. You might get to the point when you have a neighbor come in and say I have this good drone footage and I don t like what they are doing over there. I can t hear it from my house, I can t see it from my house but I am just being nosey and want to do something. Like I said it goes to privacy, I think zoning is to help neighbors get along, not make everyone comply with everything right down the line. It s to help people get along when they can t do it on their own. Ok, on his note if he uses google earth as a tool for BZA meeting, he wants to be an informed user. So the best option is to bring it with him at the meeting and tell the resident I was viewing it from google, here is what I saw and explain this to me. And then they have the chance to defend themselves? It is ok to do that? Yes Or the same thing with a drive by, or something that is prior to the BZA and you know it s there, say hey this is what I see, what is your response to that. Always bring it up. John asked if there was anything else and the group was thank for their attendance. Meeting adjourned 9:00 pm John Kline, Trustee Chairperson Maude Bias, Zoning Secretary