Why don t you tell our audience a bit about yourself.

Transcription

1 Introduction: Welcome to the Enchanting Lawyer Podcast, the show that walks you step- by- step to improving strategies you can use today to grow your business. We show you how being kind, useful, and, of course, enchanting will bring you more clients and build a thriving community. Now here s your host from sunny San Diego, Jacob Sapochnick. Hello everybody, this is Jacob Sapochnick. Welcome to the Enchanting Lawyer Podcast where we talk about marketing, business, entrepreneurship. Today, I have an interesting guest, Mr. Darren Root. Darren Root leads the strategic direction of Rootworks. He formed the vision, educating small and mid- size accounting firms on the value of technology, solution workflow, and efficiency. With more than two decades of working in the tax and accounting profession, Darren is a highly respected CPA. He pretty much [rootanize 00:00:57] the CPA industry with his innovative marketing strategies. He recently co- authored a book, Youtility for Accountants, with Jay Baer, the marketing superstar. I m honored to have Darren here on the show with us. How are you, Darren? Fine, Jacob. Thanks for letting me come on the show today. Definitely. Darren, first of all, you are on vacation right now which, I think, is important to mention that because one of the things that I m going to ask you on the show is once you reach a particular success in your business, you also want to be able to have a work and life balance. Sure. Why don t you tell our audience a bit about yourself. I started out as a practitioner. I had a CPA firm - - and still have a CPA firm today - - a really successful small firm. In America, there s about 138,000 accounting firms, Jacob, which about 45,000 of them are CPA firms. And about 99.5% of them have less than 25 employees. So, probably not a lot in like legal profession. It s a boutique business, right? I have a small firm. We do a couple of million dollars in revenue. Have about 10, 11 staff. I don t spend a lot of time in the accounting firm. Started a company called Rootworks. We tried to help accounting firms really sort of think differently, run their practices differently. Transcribed By: Ella Galicia ellagalicia@gmail.com 1

2 You mentioned Youtility for Accountants. That s a book I did with Jay Baer. We re on our third book. I did one with a guy named Michael Gerber who wrote the book called The E- Myth, a pretty successful book. We did an E- Myth for accountants. I did one with Jay. Jay s been a very successful, as you know, social media marketing content marketing guru really worldwide. We did one called Youtility for Accountants and then we re releasing, hopefully tomorrow, one I wrote my own called The Intentional Accountant. I spend most of my time writing and helping accounting firms right now, Jacob. So you re announcing the new book first time on this show. It is. It is. Very interesting. It s the second time we have somebody announce a book on our show. We have Mark Schaefer, the Twitter guy. He announced his new book on our show and that was interesting. So that s great. What is going to be the focus of the new book? It s really a refinement of what we ve been doing for the last 25 years and it s really this concept of being very intentional about what you do. Most small businesses, most pieces of a small business happen kind of by accident. You have sort of an accidental brand or an unintentional brand. Or you kind of have an unintentional client base. You have an unintentional sort of marketing strategy or client service delivery model. It just kind of happened. It wasn t that you said, Oh, this is what I want to do. This is exactly how I m going to do this and how I want to be successful. It just kind of happened. That s where the name really comes from, The Intentional Accountant. It s just being very intentional about every piece of your business. Darren, what do you think accounting firms and accountants - - and even other professionals in the service business - - are doing wrong in marketing? In marketing, I think they re not going after the kind of clients that they really want. They re not being specific about the kind of clients they want. I m not so sure about the legal profession but in the accounting profession, we kind of open our doors and we say, Here we are, we re CPA s. Come one, come all. That creates kind of a chaotic mess. We try to adapt. We re a little even worse than the attorneys is - - I hate to say that, right? But the problem with accountants is the client really drives the process. They might use a version of QuickBooks or Peachtree or anything else. They re really driving the process of the accounting firm. Transcribed By: Ella Galicia ellagalicia@gmail.com 2

3 Attorneys, at least, have their process that they use the solutions that they use and they draft their documents. Accountants are not as capable from that perspective of really defining a model. What I found interesting about when I was reading Youtility for Accountants, and your strategy, is even before they come to the door, before you refine the system to create the work is how do you create a system where clients, they retain you. What is this driving force that brings them to the door and they decide to hire you? I think that s something that you emphasize in the book. And also you ve done it before the book, being useful, being kind and offering information first. So maybe you can tell me about this concept a bit. So I think the number one key is knowing who it is that you want to serve. After you know who it is that you want to serve, Jacob, I think, then it s creating information that s interesting to those people and going after those people. Let s say that I wanted to serve physicians in my practice and be more specific. Let s say I want to serve orthopedist in my practice. If I want to become a youtility to them Youtility, in the Youtility for Accountants sort of framework which is Y- O- Utility. I wanted my marketing to be about helping them and not hyping them. So our book is really about help not hype. So I want to answer those questions that orthopedists want to know. What should my income be? What should our rent be? How should I set up my practice? So, our marketing is very useful. Helping them understand the way they should be practicing medicine or practicing orthopedics as oppose to just saying, Hey, look at me. I m smart and we provide good customer service. We all do that. It s about creating the right kind of information that that orthopedist knows that I know what I m doing and I would be a good resource for them. Does that make sense? Well, it does make sense to me because I try to follow that in our practice [unclear 00:06:33]. But a lot of people will say, It s a waste of time. What do you see the benefit of doing those? Working with your company where you educate other accountants, how do you show them that there is value in doing that because it s not just a waste of time? Accounting firms, in the beginning, I think, I just want to grow my business. I just want to go market to people. Right. But I think when I start understanding this concept of just really providing useful information I think when you could talk to accountants and you get them to Transcribed By: Ella Galicia ellagalicia@gmail.com 3

4 understand even our own buying habits. Mine in years, Jacob, if I want to buy a new car, the first thing I do is I go research and I look for somebody who s the most helpful to me. Maybe it s the dealer that s the most helpful. Not the one that s trying to sell me something but the one who s trying to answer my questions. When somebody is not trying to sell me something or trying to help me, I engage whether that s an attorney, or a CPA, or a card dealer. That s the point of our Youtility for Accountants is if you just try to be very helpful, people will respond to that. We already do it in our natural day- to- day lives. I mean you do it, I do it. We just don t know we do it. We don t know that we go do According to Jay Baer, about two- thirds of the buying decision has already been committed prior to ever making that phone call to the attorney or to the CPA or to anybody else because we do our research today. Is that how you do your stuff? Right. I think, in my case, when I go and try to get an accountant or any other professional, you look at things like reviews, you ask people. You want to see what the interaction in the phone. You call the office. I think that this is going to be the way of the future right now because people are not going to tolerate anymore. They want to expect more. How tech savvy are they? I mean you go to their website, you have about seven seconds to keep them on your website. So if your website really stinks, you re done. You don t even know you re done. That s the problem. You don t even know that you lost them. Right. You went to my website and it looked terrible so you moved on. As oppose to coming to my website and saying, Wow! He deals with orthopedists. Look at this client center where I can log in and do things and all. They answer all these questions about things I should be doing in advanced text planning. That s helping people and it keeps them on your site for a while. I totally agree with that. Some people who are in our service business, they don t realize that they re losing so many clients who are just turned off by the website or by the message they give. Think of it as a cost, I think. I think they think of a website, or mobile app, or any of that kind of stuff as an expense. My profession, in particular, is cheap. I don t know a more positive way to say that but they re really trying to count their cost. Transcribed By: Ella Galicia ellagalicia@gmail.com 4

5 I do this one thing, Jacob, as we track how much new business we get So when a new client comes and we say, How did you find out about us? Oh, I did a Google search, you came up on the first page. I like what I saw. I called you. So it s not a referral, it s not like that. I called you and we hired you. We get about $100,000 with a new annual recurring business a year. That s not $100,000 over lifetime, that s $100,000 new each year. It s $100,000 this year, $200,000 next year, right? Right. I ve got a $5,000 website. So what s the value of my website is certainly not an expense. That s a nice investment if I m getting clients by having a great solution on my website. Right. Again, it s a state of mind, so difficult to convince people that are in the service business. I m curious to know. You ve been doing this for 20 years. What do you think was the difference in the beginning when you started your practice? There was no internet. How did you show that Youtility kind of service in the beginning or did you? That s a great question. It was really hard back then. I had a really good friend of mine that have a large law firm and the one thing I ask him - - this is going back 25 years and he s still one of my best friends today. I said, How did you grow your law firm? He said, When I do this, I promised that I d get stuff done tomorrow and I did it. Back then, that was kind of a big deal because in the legal profession, Yeah, I ll get to that next month, right? He said, I got stuff in. We work really hard. We turned it around. Today, it s so much easier than even that. I mean now we have the web, we have social media, we have so many ways to communicate how efficient, how effective we can be. But your question, more specifically, is how did we sort of evolve? One of the things I never wanted to be, Jacob, was a CPA. I really want to be a business owner. I really like just helping people and I like using technology to do that so I was always sort of on the cutting edge of technology and I always thought about running my practice. The old style of running a practice - - and I say old style but most firms don t run it this way is Let s kill ourselves during busy season and try not to work so much the rest of the year. Transcribed By: Ella Galicia ellagalicia@gmail.com 5

6 It was just never for me. I always want to have this even sort of keel. I want to kind of figure out how to have an even keel on working instead of just the old model of the way practice has always been. I had a conversation with somebody today and they ask me, Well, what is the most that you like about running your law firm? And I said, That s exactly it, running the law firm. I don t like to work in the law firm but I like to run it. I like the creative side of it. I often talk to attorneys. We ve been doing this one for many years and in other professionals. One of the things that they say which is interesting is back then there was less people that knew about what you were doing, and if you messed up, the damage was less severe. Today, you cannot afford to mess up anymore. It s enough for you to be rude to a client, to forget to deliver, or overcharge, or steal, and that s it. Your name is trashed forever. We have this thing, Jacob, that I talk about in The Intentional Accountant and it s called continuum. We call the intentional account continuum. There s this concept that really kind of came out of Gerber s work in the E- Myth which is you re either a technician or you re an entrepreneur. What s sort of my opinion that you re not all one or you re not all the other which is sort of on a continuum. So, you could be very much a technician. There s still some entrepreneurial things that you do, but maybe not a lot, that you and I want to be more entrepreneurial in nature. We want to run our business but there s still technical things that I do and you do. The goal, in our continuum, is to move along this continuum and sort of move away from being more of a technician to being more of an entrepreneur. Not that you can be all one or all the other but you want to slide across the continuum. Does that make any sense? Right. It does make sense. It s funny that you mentioned Michael Gerber. I actually had lunch with him two weeks ago. Oh good. How is he doing? He s doing very well. He s working on another project. I told him my vision about what I m doing at the firm and he told me, You don t know exactly what you want yet because you have not created the system or the vision for. You have to actually see it. It s funny that he mentioned it because it s true. I have something in mind and I have an idea but I don t see how I m going to get there. Transcribed By: Ella Galicia ellagalicia@gmail.com 6

7 Somebody like him who s been doing this for so many years still has the clear vision about how systems should work whether he s doing it through E- Myth or through his new project. But I just feel that a lot of people don t see the vision. We don t see the vision why we re doing what we re doing, why we re marketing because we want to have more clients. Well, you have the clients, how do you service them? I wanted to ask you, Darren, because you found a very creative way to market your firm. But once the clients start coming in to your firm, I think you figure out a way to create a system where you service them in a very particular way which you teach your customers at the Rootworks LLC. Why don t you tell me a bit about the system that you have? Since I own an accounting firm My accounting firm is called Root & Associates. So I have a domain called root.com. You don t get four- letter domains very easily. So I saved a lot of money for that domain. Geez, that s probably been 12 or 13 years ago, before we re really talking about websites and all the stuff. So I sort of have an idea that the web was going to be important so I bought this domain root.com. So we get about, I don t know, 8,000 to 10,000 people on root.com, our accounting firm, a month. Inside of the accounting firm, we really kind of perfect what we believe a firm should do and then in Rootworks, we indicate accounting firms on how we do it in Root & Associates. So in Root & Associates, we try to create a system process that does not include me as the owner or like you, Jacob, that is important in delivering the actual service. So we build these systems where it doesn t include me and I ve never set the expectation that it s going to be me. So I m really, most of the time, just running a business called Root & Associates. Then we take that. We show firms through Rootworks how to do that. Do you want to maybe give an example of one of the elements of doing that? Because I think there s a good synergy between law firms, accounting firms, and other services. This is the biggest complain that people tell me. I m working 14, 15 hours a day. I can t take a vacation. You re talking to me right now from your vacation spot. Maybe if you can give a simple snippet of the concept. In Root & Associates, one of the services we provide would be, let s say, bookkeeping services. Let s say, Jacob, your law firm you didn t want to have a bookkeeper. You want to outsource that to your accountant. So what we do in Root & Associates, I have a business model that says, I service attorneys and here s the software that we use. So maybe it s QuickBooks online and maybe you have your billing software. We want you to be paperless. Transcribed By: Ella Galicia ellagalicia@gmail.com 7

8 We have a system that we ve defined to serve law firms, okay? So it s not you coming to me saying, Ah, here I ve got QuickBooks 2003 or something and here s my backup and here s how I do things. That s not how we do it. We say, Here s our model. Here s how we serve you, okay? So when we take you on I sit down with you and often times I m in that meeting. But one of the things I learned from my friend, the attorney, is never going to a meeting alone. Because by going to that meeting alone, I set the expectation that I m going to do the work. So always take a manager in that meeting using other CPA from the firm and maybe our bookkeeper that s going to be working on that client. So we talk about what we re going to do. We re in charge of how we re going to do that. So I already defined what the model looks like. I ve already said You re going to be paperless. Here s a software solution you re going to use. And here s Jill on our team. She s the CPA. Here s how she s going to help you and here s Michelle and here s how she s going to help you. By the time we finish that meeting, we re all set. We know how you were going to be serviced in the model that you re going to be serviced in. That is totally opposite of the way most accountants would normally run that meeting, Jacob. I think that s a great tip because people always expect to see the head of the firm or the person s name in the office. If that happens, the more clients you get, it s impossible for you to [unclear 00:17:42] free. Because, you know, Oh, I just want to see Darren. I just want to see Jacob. Just only one person. So you basically kind of set it up just one way to do it. Yeah. I realized that with my attorney that he wasn t doing most of the work and I didn t care that he didn t any of the work. I just want the work done. I want to be able to call him if I needed him but I didn t care that he was actually drafting my will or my estate documents. I just needed to know that he was there. Right. That s a big piece to learn. Which is something that you teach at your coaching programs as well. It is. What do you think is some of the main problems that you see right now with the new CPA firms that come up and some of the clients that reach to you? What are some of the biggest problems? Is it the management of the firms or the marketing? Transcribed By: Ella Galicia ellagalicia@gmail.com 8

9 Well, it s really both. I think that one leads to the other. I think the biggest problem, the number one problem is and I ve run a lot of surveys on this. Only 15% of accounting firms - - or at least that s the numbers that we get back - - say that they have a business model. Imagine going into Starbucks, Jacob, and ordering a cheeseburger and them having to figure out how to make that for you. That d be chaos. Starbucks has a business model but an accounting firm doesn t. So 85% of firms don t have a model. So that s the number one biggest problem. That leads to a marketing problem. If you don t know who you want to serve and how you want to serve them then how are you going to go market to them? How are you going to become useful to them? The real problem stems from not knowing what business you re in. Once you understand that then you can create a web presence, then you can create a mobile presence, then you can create a marketing strategy, you can create a social strategy around that. What most practitioners want to do is go do social media. They want to go do marketing but they don t know who they want to do that for and that s the real challenge. How do you think somebody can create a business model? Is it by trial and error? What are some of the elements? Because that s a great point. We have system designed around what we call defining your vision statement. We help you think through in Rootworks, who it is that you re really great at serving. You know that if the phone rings today, Jacob, you know who you want to be on the other end of that call. In my case it s a physician who wants bookkeeping and payroll and corporate tax returns and all this stuff. That s right in our sweet spot. We help firms think through who is it in your sweet spot? Who is it that you want to be on the other end of that line? I don t want somebody calling me, asking me an international tax question. It s not something that I m good at. So we don t do that anymore. In the old days we d say, Oh yeah, we can do that, then I have to go figure out how to do it. Today, we define exactly who we want to serve. We don t do construction in Root & Associates. We don t do manufacturing. We don t do non- profits. We don t do more than we do do. We do very limited things. What we help firms do is think through what is it that you re really great at and who are you great at serving? So it s those two things: [unclear 00:20:56] and Transcribed By: Ella Galicia ellagalicia@gmail.com 9

10 what services. We help firms think through what those two things are and then we help them build a technology model to serve them. Does that make sense? Absolutely. Because the internal desire is to take on, take on. If they call you, you have to service them otherwise we re going to lose business. I think that maybe in the beginning things are going to be a bit slower. But once you establish yourself as that expert then you have your niche. They only want to come to you. Yeah. We have one Rootworks member down in Dallas. I think when he joined Rootworks he had three veterinary clients. Today, he has 95 veterinary clients across the state of Texas. So, back then, he said, I like vets. He said, We only have three but that s what we re really good at. I don t often suggest that you narrow, quite that narrow, but he says, You know, I really like serving the vets. I know how to serve vets. I know how to get them fans. I know what their balance sheets ought to look like in their income statements. He goes, I know everything about vets. I said, Alright, let s go after vets. So he started focusing on vets. He s done about $3.5 million today servicing vets on a monthly basis and growing it like crazy. But all he has to know about now is vets. I think he s an example in the book as well, right? He s in Youtility for Accountants. Absolutely. I remember he was in the beginning. It s one of those areas where you feel that if you either go all the way in and if you make it, that s it. You are the vet CPA and everybody wants to come to you. It s psychologically very difficult to work on it because competition is so fierce. But it looks like it s the way to do it. I think you have to make a commitment why you re going to be great. There s going to be something that you do that s going to separate yourself. I don t want to go to my general practitioner or doctor to have heart surgery and I know that seems sort of cliché but you really want to go to somebody that knows what they re doing in a specific niche. I think the accounting profession and particularly the legal profession. My friend I was talking about, he s a divorced attorney. So the people that he gets is divorces because that s what he does. He has other people in the firm that do other things but that s his thing. So, I think, it s really important to find those niches. Absolutely. Transcribed By: Ella Galicia ellagalicia@gmail.com 10

11 With all the success that you had over these years, I wanted to ask you, maybe you can share something about failures. You can tell us something about that in your practice or in their marketing business that you learn from? I think the number one is the word no. It s not something I ve been very good at over the years. Over the last six years I ve been running Root & Associates, the accounting firm. We started Rootworks. I was Executive Editor of CPA Practice Advisor Magazine and I was given 50 keynotes a year. I think it s important to really have the ability to say no to things that are not really great opportunities for fear that something else is not going to come along because you can kind of work yourself to death. Probably one of the biggest failures I have is having that inability to say, You know, that s not the very, very, very best thing for me to use my time at. Does that make sense? Yeah. It s an advice that people in the service business should definitely take too hard because the biggest thing that can happen to you is a client that you don t want to take on. You know in your heart that you don t want to take but you take it because the money is there. Yeah. Saying no to clients is really one of the best thing that we can do in our businesses. Because we know that if that s not the right client for us, it doesn t matter how much he s going to pay us. He s going to create misery in ourselves and business is not going to go well. I think that s the number one learning for me, Jacob, is having the guts to say no to things that don t meet that great opportunity sort of a benchmark. Right. Within doing marketing and business we grow as firms, what do you think is the value of work and life balance in all this equation? Being able to take off. Being able to have a chat with your employees, spend time with your family. Maybe you can share some of that from your experience. Saying no has a lot to do with work- life balance. If I were just writing my accounting firm, I d probably work about 10 hours a week, maybe five. But, you know, we need to keep taking on more and keep taking on more. That creates challenges with work- life balance. I think the most important thing that people can do is really start understanding technology. Technology is a great thing. As you said, I m down on my condo along [unclear 00:25:41] my wife and I had been down here for a couple of weeks and so I ve written my books down here. Transcribed By: Ella Galicia ellagalicia@gmail.com 11

12 So we can kind of work from wherever we want to work from today. That s a good thing. It can also be a bad thing. Because getting away from technology can be a big challenge. Whether it s your mobile phone, whether it s , whatever it is. Finding the right balance is really a big challenge I find for professionals. For the longest time I set the standard that I would you right back. Jacob, you d me, I m going to you back in just a few minutes, right? Right. A few years ago, I decided that was one of the worse things I could do is set the expectation that I m going to you right back. I only about I try to do it only about once a day. So, if you me today, I ll probably you back tomorrow. I might look at it but I m not going to set the expectation. So, I think, for work- life balance standpoint is understanding technology and understanding how to sort of try to master technology so it doesn t really master you, if that make sense. I think, kind of to summarize that, if you manage to balance that and also you come home and you have a good relationship with your family that you come back to work energize and you re able to implement a lot of things because if you re always in a down mode, it s never going to go anywhere. Right. You know, 25 years ago when I started doing this, the only place I could work was at my desk. There was no other place. Work- life balance really didn t exist because the work was there, you did it, and that might be 11 o clock at night. Today, you can go home, have dinner, you can put your kids to bed if you have younger kids - - mine are all out of the house now - - and then you can work from anywhere. The technology exists today to really work anywhere, anytime, anyplace on any device. But you got to really understand how to master that and really think through it. It s like anything else. You have to figure out how to be intentional about it. Right. I totally agree with that. As we come to the end of our show in a few minutes, if you can give me a prediction about what do you think is going to be the next thing in marketing or in service that people definitely must embrace and you would definitely vouch Transcribed By: Ella Galicia ellagalicia@gmail.com 12

13 for it. It doesn t have to be a technology tool or maybe a system or something that you feel we should not ignore. Mobile is the most important thing right now. Most law firms, most accounting firms are just getting caught up to web. We re past web. Web s important but that s table stakes today. Mobile s where it s at. Everything has to be available on a mobile device. Really quick example if we have time, Jacob. I fly a lot each year and I normally fly American Airlines or I have status. But I was doing three conferences in Denver and so I flew Frontier. Frontier didn t have a mobile app. I couldn t check in online, I couldn t get my mobile boarding pass. I swore I would never fly Frontier again because the expectation had been set by Chase Bank, by American Airlines, by Delta. So the minimum standard was I had a mobile app, I could check in online, I didn t have to go get a boarding pass, I didn t have to go do those sort of things. So to me today, mobile is the baseline. We ve got to figure out how to deliver everything we do via mobile. That s not much of a prediction because that s here today. Well, it is a prediction for our industries because they re kind of behind in many things. Yeah. Like you said, the web they re trying to master it now. But services that are businesses that are ignoring mobile, I agree. They re not going to stay afloat too long. You ought to build to make an appointment to come and see somebody your firm today, Jacob. You ought to be able to maybe quickly whether choosing some integrated Skype or go- to meeting or anything else from a mobile device. They ought to build to see you and talk to you remotely on a mobile device from a mobile app that you have. They have a secret documents. The list goes on. There s so many things that a law firm or a CPA firm can do on a mobile device today and make their practices better. I agree. I think this year is mobile, who knows what s going to be next year. Darren, why don t you share with us maybe one of your favorite quotes if you want to share with our audience. Transcribed By: Ella Galicia ellagalicia@gmail.com 13

14 Probably my favorite quote is That s a good question, Jacob. Probably my favorite quote is from Steve Jobs. I think he did it at Stanford about not living somebody else s life. Right. I put that in my book, The Intentional Accountant. It s the first quote in the book, you know, about not living somebody else s life and living your own. He had so many good quotes. He does. I don t know he was able to come up with all those but He was my favorite. He was. Today, it s just kind of there s a void, for sure. There is. How about an interesting book that you re reading or read or you re thinking about maybe? I read a lot but probably the two books that impacted my business life the most was The 7 Habits. I got to know Stephen Covey a bit before he died because I was a facilitator for 7 Habits for a number of years. Then Michael s The E- Myth is a profound book, having that understanding that we re not just technicians. Understanding that you begin with the end at mind from the 7 Habits and understanding that, you know, we re not just technicians, that we re actually entrepreneurs. Those were probably the two biggest learning books that I had from my business life. The E- Myth, I always bring it up and every time people ask me about this book and different conversation but, I think, that the whole concept and just knowing the person who created it, it s just interesting because after all these years, nothing has changed. Twenty- five years. I think Michael wrote that nearly 25 years ago The first one came out 80 something That s amazing. Nothing has changed with all the technology, the concept. Transcribed By: Ella Galicia ellagalicia@gmail.com 14

15 Again, to summarize our discussion, if we don t understand those core elements of doing business or being able to free yourself to be able to be a better manager and being useful and kind because you can get away with it. Now, you always should have been but now it s more important, then you have no place in running a business. You know, Stephen Covey wrote the 7 Habits but all his research for the 7 Habits was out of wisdom literature from the ages. There s not a lot of new stuff, Jacob. You have to really different ways of saying it so people can apply it in different ways. Right. Excellent. Darren, if our audience would like to find you and your businesses online, I m going to include the links as well. But if you want to verbally mention them, the website, that ll be great. Sure. Rootworks.com is our consulting website. We build websites, we build brands, we build mobile apps for professional service firms - - particularly accounts but certainly can help attorneys. If somebody wants to see that in action, root.com is my accounting firm. So that would be very [comparable 00:32:57] to the law firm. So root.com is my accounting firm and Rootworks is the company that we have that services accounting firms. Closing: Alright. Very good. Thank you so much, Darren, for coming on our show. Alright, Jacob. Thank you. This is Jacob Sapochnick, enchantinglawyer.com. We thank you for listening to our podcast. If you have any questions, please me at jacob@enchantinglawyer.com. We d like to hear your comments and suggestions and we ll see you at our next episode. Thank you. Thanks for listening. You can find even more resources, including the show notes for this episode, at enchantinglawyer.com. That s Transcribed By: Ella Galicia ellagalicia@gmail.com 15