1 Glenn Livingston, Ph.D. And Kathryn S. I Will Never Shout Again For more information on how to fix your food problem fast please visit And if you'd like to help OTHERS fix their food problem using the Never Binge Again Method please visit Hey, it's the very good Dr. Glenn Livingston with Never Binge Again and I'm here with Kathryn, who has agreed to let us record her session so you can benefit from her experience and her strength and her wisdom. How are you, Kathryn? I'm very well, thank you very much. Very good. It's nice to have you here. So Kathryn has been working with Never Binge Again rather successfully, I want to hear a little bit about that and then we were going to talk a little bit about applying it to some other areas of thinking and life 'cause we haven't had too many sessions recorded about that and I thought it might be a nice thing to do. So Kathryn, catch me up. How have things been going, what's your experience been like with Never Binge Again, and what do you want to talk about today?
2 Okay. So I have been following Never Binge Again for about a year. I had, previously to that, lost 45 kilos, which is about 98 pounds I think in American. We don't do that here. But I've done that before and I've gained weight and I've lost weight and I've gained and lost weight over and over again and I got to that weight and I was like, "No, I must never gain this again." And I was quite frightened, I'll be honest, and almost at the point of panicky about never wanting to eat again. I was frightened to eat anything or go anywhere in case somebody gave me something. And I expressed this on a Facebook group, and somebody suggested that I read your book, which I devoured, and that is a good word to use, put the principles in place within days and I have never since then gained more than a kilo from my goal weight. In fact, I've lost a bit at times. Yeah, I'm very pleased. What was it about Never Binge Again that worked for you? I think after the first few days of actually actively thinking about it, I stopped thinking about it. And I have my rules and my rules are set and sometimes they change and they can be quite flexible. And as I've become much more confident about what I can eat and when I can eat it, these rules have changed slightly, but I have two very basic rules that have been there right from the very start and they've worked. That freedom from that has just been phenomenal. Are you frightened of food still? No, not at all. I can eat what I like, I only eat what I like, and I love that. I don't have to do something just because somebody offers it. I don't have to eat something just because it's there or because I liked it five
3 minutes ago and it's still there and I'd like some more, I don't have to do that. It's fabulous. Terrific. Well, and now, you would like to take this to another level, what got your attention for this call? What did you want to talk about? So I have five children. The oldest is 14 and the youngest is four. You must have loads of free time? Oh, yeah. Loads of it, yeah. And the other thing is they're home educated, so they are with me all of the time. But I have a tendency when I get to a certain place to be or to feel, I'm not actually, but to feel like I'm the worst mother in the entire universe. And I feel sure that 99 percent of mothers will go, "Oh, yes, I feel that way too," because motherhood is like nothing else. And you can feel like the best and worst mother sometimes simultaneously and certainly within seconds of each other. I would like to stop that feeling because it leads on to behavior from me and from the children that is not desirable in my family. What would you like to replace it with? Now, that's a really good question. I think I would like to replace it with, okay, this is a bad moment, but that does not make me a bad person. So this is something either that somebody else has instigated. I do feel very strongly that mothers, in particular, can only really be as happy as their unhappiest child, and I feel that very keenly. And mothers, I've spoken to many women about this and they're like, "Oh, yeah, that is how it is." Because when you have an unhappy child, it is very, very difficult to be anything other than happy.
4 And I have a 14-year-old and their hormones are wild all of the time. And then I have a six-year-old who is also going through all sorts of trials of her own. And I just think sometimes, their unhappiness, I feel that. I feel that pain. And that can then cause tensions in the household, it can cause negative emotions, but that is not me being a bad mother. I guess that's what the pig is saying. The pig is making me feel that I'm actually the worst person in the world for whatever reason. So you'd like the capacity to experience unhappiness and part of the normal trials and tribulations of motherhood with five young children in the house for a homeschooled, you'd like to more maturely accept that there are going to be unhappy moments without making the interpretation and getting carried away with the idea that you're a bad mother? Yes, and I think without the blame. It's very easy to blame myself for everything that ever goes wrong in the family ever. It doesn't matter even if I wasn't there, still all my fault. So it's very negative. It does not make for a happy family life. Would it be fair to say you could even go a step further and say that your capacity to feel the feelings of your children and all the unhappiness that goes through the household sometimes in the normal course of growing up, that that might make you a good mother that you're empathic with your children and able to connect like that, tuned in? Oh, yes. And I think if I didn't feel that way, then there wouldn't be the love that I feel for them. There wouldn't be the sense that I need to teach them. I have bad things happen to me. I have health issues.
5 Stuff happens in life. People break into a car or whatever. And you have to deal with those things. Bad things will happen and children needs be taught that. But yeah, the pain is still there and I think I take all of that on myself. So yes, I think that that makes me probably a very passionate and very loving mother as opposed to a bad one. That's what I think. So let's kind of dig for what else might be going on here with your pig. When you get stuck with the idea that you're the worst mother in the world or the worst mother in the universe, what's the rest of that sentence? "Therefore, you should just do blank. Therefore, X, Y, and Z is the case." Where is the therefore statement? I don't know if there's a therefore, but there is a because. Can we give a because for a minute? Sure. I might get to therefore at some point, but it's because and it's always because I've lost my temper and that's what makes me the worst mother in the world. Okay, 'cause you've lost your temper. And is part of what you want to do to be able to get through these moments without losing your temper? Oh, yeah. Absolutely. I would love to not lose my temper. It's completely pointless. I have a temper that comes very quickly, so I think I can feel it before they recognize it and so I will very calmly say maybe 20 times, "Please, can you put your shoes on. We're running a bit late now. I really need you to put your shoes on because we're running late." And I can say that really calmly for quite a while, and
6 then suddenly, I'll just go, "Put your shoes on!" And I've lost it. And then everything comes out then. Everything that they may or may not have done for the past, I don't know, week, all comes out in one big tirade. And I see them. They sit on the stairs and they go, "We'll just sit here quietly," and she'll just like blast this a bit and then she'll go away and it'll be fine. But it makes me feel horrible and it must make them feel horrible. Immediately, any sort of fun has gone and it's just gone and it is over fairly quickly, but it's not very pleasant and it doesn't need to happen and I would rather it didn't. Does the feeling like you're the worst mother in the world occur before you lose your temper or afterwards? No, afterwards. Afterwards? Yes. So does the idea that you're the worst mother in the world, is that a punishment that makes it okay that you lost your temper? Are you trying to do penance for having lost your temper? What function does it serve to tell yourself that you're the worst mother in the world after having lost your temper? I want to talk to you about losing your temper also but I don't understand the sequel, like, what happens? Yes, it probably is because what it does is it puts the blame on me rather than them. So I only ever lose my temper for two reasons. I'm going to say that they're excuses, not reasons. They're both, really. They are. I lose my temper when there's been unkindness between them and siblings are unkind to each other, I know that. I know that
7 that's what happens, but I will lose my temper sometimes in that situation if I feel like somebody has been unkind because again, I feel that very keenly. If one of them is hurting, I love them both so deeply that I become mother bear to the one that's hurting, but then hurt the one that isn't and that's not right either. There must be a way of dealing with that. And the other one is just blatant disobedience, like we're in a hurry and they're not putting their shoes on or they won't come and sit with me when I've asked them to come and sit with me and do something and we'll do the washing up or whatever it is. And again, it is just children being children, but life is what it is and I need them to sometimes just do something because I've asked them to do it and not argue with me. Those are the only two reasons, or no, those are the only two situations really where I lose my temper. And so the perseveration on the idea that you're the worst mother in the universe, that restores your sense of fairness and balance? Like now, you're taking responsibility back on your own shoulders? Yes, that's right. It's not their fault that I've lost my temper. My temper is mine and so yes. I guess in a way, it is giving me I guess the permission or the forgiveness for having lost my temper so it's my fault, so yeah. What would be a better way to do that? Is there a way that you could take responsibility back without perseverating on something that's going to harm you in the long run?
8 I'm sure there is. I don't know what that is right now. Can we keep working through that one? 'Cause that would be really interesting to know, and I will come to it, I think, but I just don't know right now. Okay. So there's an underlying force that sustaining the feeling like you're the worst mother in the world and that's to take responsibility back where you believe it belongs. Yeah. I do have this tendency to just blame myself endlessly for everything that goes wrong because it can't be their fault. And I do believe that. And when you apply Never Binge Again principles to food, nobody can make you eat anything. But in this case, actually, people can actually have an effect on your feelings. How you respond to it is different, but people could definitely have an effect on how you feel and how you behave. So you'd prefer not to lose your temper at all? Yeah. That would be the best outcome for me, is to be able to find a way to not lose my temper, to recognize when that's coming like I would recognize a food binge. I don't do that anymore because I know how to spot that. What's the actual behavior that occurs when you lose your temper? Oh, it's just shouting. It's very loud and not very pleasant. Is there any reason that you have to shout in the house? No, and it's completely pointless.
9 Is there any reason you ever have to shout in the house? No, I don't think so. Unless there's a fire or something like that? Well, yes, obviously. And if somebody was doing something dangerous, then I might. And maybe if I never shouted, to have more effect, and sometimes I do worry about that. No, I don't think there is a reason because sometimes I call people, so I'll call someone down for dinner or something. But it's not shouting, not angry shouting, it's just calling people. So no, I don't think I have a reason to ever shout in the house. What if you said you'll never shout in the house again? I just got that one coming. And do you know what rules work really well? But what do I do when I do? That's the question, isn't it? That's like, what happens if you do binge. You make a food rule and what happens if you do binge, will you deal with the consequences and you feel the pain for a minute? So maybe for a minute, you're going to feel like the worst mother in the universe, but then you look at the situation and you figure out what went wrong and there was probably some element of self-care that you neglected just like if you have a food binge, maybe you didn't feed yourself well enough. Maybe when you analyze the situation, you look for the opportunities to have prevented the tension from arising or at least prevented yourself from shouting about it. And once you figure out what the squeal was that made the shouting okay, then you resume just like you would resume with the binge.
10 Yes. Is it okay to shout in the car? No, but I don't. And I don't ever shout in public. So it's just in the house? Yes, because I wouldn't want anyone else to see me. Why not just say that I'll never shout again unless it's an emergency? Yes. I think I can do that. I think I probably need some strategies, but I need to come up with those myself really. I know how to do that. I think I need some strategies. So I have occasionally gone to the extreme of actually taking food out of my mouth and putting it in the bin and then saying, "No, I'm not going to eat that." I'm feeling really good about myself. I don't feel guilty. I would like to get to that point where I can feel it coming and I can just go, "No, I'm not going to do this." Catch yourself right in the middle if you have to and stop the locomotive. Stop and turn it around, yeah. Yeah. So I'll never shout again unless it's an emergency. If you were able to do that for a year, why would that be good? What would be different? Oh, it would just be incredible to do that. I don't have the words for that. You might be able to get that. I just don't actually have the words
11 for how incredible that would feel if by next Christmas, and it is a measurable amount of time because it's Christmas coming up, that I could get to next Christmas and have never shouted in the house again, and that would just be phenomenal. What would be different? How would your kids be different? How would you feel different? What would you be doing differently next year that you're not doing this year yet? Well, we've never really gone that far. We can go a couple of months sometimes without me losing my temper for various reasons and it's always really lovely. And then when I do shout again, there was that like, "Oh, this hasn't happened for ages," and I can just see the hurt in their faces. And I have actually had my old one particularly 'cause he's much more conscious of time and things. And he'd say, "Do you know what, you haven't shouted for a while." and I know that he really appreciates that and that's a really special thing. So to be able to have done that for you, I think it would change our lives. Yeah. You think your kids will develop more confidence and security inside them? Yes, I think that they would. Yeah. And I think possibly, because they wouldn't be worrying necessarily about what I might say next or where this conversation might go, perhaps I might actually just begin to see some behavior changes and they might put their shoes on the third time I ask, on the 50 th, I don't know, or the point that I lose my temper because there would be no need for that. Sometimes I think that they do it on purpose. I'm sure that they do sometimes 'cause some children like to have fun with their parents and I do think that sometimes, they know that it's coming, but they can't stop themselves
12 either. And maybe it is something that we need to sit down and talk about. And if you model it with behavior, then they'll get the idea. Yeah. They know about the pig. They even have some of their own food rules. They are conscious of that as a principle and they know how I believe in it. When I worked as a child and a family of psychologist for all those years, I found that children did about 80 percent of what their parents did and 20 percent of what the parents said. Yeah, absolutely they do. And when I'm losing my temper, they're much more likely to lose that temper with each other. And why shouldn't they? Why shouldn't they do what I do? Because I'm forever saying, "Do this, do that." They're at a very impressionable age, they can change all that. That doesn't have to get stuck in their personality. They're very malleable right now. What happens if you don't do this? What happens if you just keep allowing yourself to shout? I just continue to be miserable every few weeks or months and I just continue to have it on my mind. When is the next shout coming? When is the next time coming that they're going to really annoy me? And I know it's not really them and I do worry about it. I'm conscious of it when I haven't shouted for a period of time and I'm thinking, "Okay, so I haven't shouted for a while, probably will again," and I do. It is constantly there. So yeah, that would continue.
13 Is that you thinking that or is that your pig thinking you'll probably shout at them? Oh, no, it's the pig and the pig wants me to shout, of course. The pig wants me to feel bad, absolutely. Why? Because that's what he always wants. He always wants me to feel bad. I don't know why I said he, he could be a she. It's an it. I always call it an it. It is, yeah. I don't know why my alter ego is a he. Why does the pig wants you to feel bad? If you're the worst mother in the world, then you can do what? Well, I can be miserable, first up. I can make other people's pigs miserable. You can be miserable and you can make other people miserable, why is that good? Why does the pig like that? Because he is miserable and anybody who's miserable wants other people to be miserable like themselves. So the pig gets off on making other people miserable?
14 Yeah, because he's miserable and I don't want to be miserable. And I certainly don't want the children to be miserable or anybody else for that matter. Why does your pig say that you can't, shouldn't or won't do this? Why does the pig say that you have to shout or you're going to shout or you will shout some time? Because otherwise, they don't listen. They're just not going to do it. They're not going to listen because they're children and children, by their very nature, actually -- and I wrote my dissertation on this for my degree how teenagers, in particular, have to break away from their parents. And they have to do things differently to their parents, and they have to become their own individual people. And that makes for a very uncomfortable few years whilst they discover that actually, their parents are right all along if they just be what they're told, and life is much sweeter. But during that transition period, it is very difficult. And really for the next 18 years, I'm going to have two, possibly three teenagers in my house any given moment in time and that's going to be an uncomfortable right for anybody; for them, for me, for everybody that shouting is not going to make a difference to them. Pig says it's the only way that's going to get you any control. Yeah, the pig does say that. Absolutely says that. Why else does the pig say that you can't, shouldn't or won't stop shouting? Because it's who I am. That's what they expect me to do. The children expect it eventually that at some point, mommy is going to shout, so we
15 may as well just get on. And then once she shouted, it's all over. We can get on with our lives and everybody's happy again. So yes, it's what's expected. It's what I expect. So you might as well just get it over with? Yeah. Why else does the pig say that you can't, shouldn't or won't stop shouting? I can't think of anything else right now. I think those are the two main ones, yeah. So where is the lie in there? When the pig says that nobody's ever going to listen if you don't shout, this is the only way to get control so you might as well have at it, where is the lie there? Well, the lie is that if I stop shouting, I will probably actually have more control. It shouldn't be about control anyway, but that's a whole other question, I think, to ask. But, yes, because it should be. As the parent, I have a duty of care, first and foremost. So sometimes, there has to be a level of control in the house because people have to do what I say in order to be safe. But I think that that control will be far better and far easier to manage if they trust me and if they're not just pushing my buttons, if they know they're not going to get [inaudible 0:19:45]. Do you mean influence more than control? You mean control? I guess both really. Influence, I think, is possibly more emotional and obviously, emotions can lead certain behaviors within families and
16 things. But yeah, my personal take on that is that the influence is more and on a deeper level. Sometimes there has to be control. Like if we're catching an airplane, they have got to put their shoes on to get -- But it's got to happen, yeah. And they just have to. Or even if we're just going to pick somebody up or getting to church on time or whatever it is, there is some level of control there, yeah, and there's a bit of self-control. Within any group of people, there has to be somebody, I think, that leads. So maybe leadership rather than control. Control is a strong word, isn't it? Well, you do need to have some control. If you're the alpha wolf, you got to have some control of the family of the pack. You do need that. When your pig says that this is just who you are so you might as well get on with shouting 'cause you're going to do it sooner or later anyway, where is the lie in that? Well, it's not who I am or at least it's not who I want to be. It's who you were. Yes, it's who I was. You're becoming someone who doesn't shout. Yeah. And I would really like that. I would love for them to see me overcome this because they see me lose weight and they're proud of me. And we looked at pictures and they're like, "Oh, you were so fat." And they're proud of me. And they see how hard I worked. And they see not so much how I work hard now, but how I make decisions every
17 day about what's good for me and what's best for us as a whole family. And to have them see me overcome this as well, I think would just be huge. And one example I'm setting, really, you can make mistakes and you can put them right. That could possibly be the best example that I ever set my children. Kathryn, how confident are you that you're never going to shout again? I don't know. I'll be honest, I don't know if I'm a hundred percent confident. I'd like to be. What do you hear? Oh, still those pig squeals, they're just still saying, "This is what you've always done so this is what you're going to do." And I know that saying, "If you always do what you've always done, then you'll always get what you've always had." I know that saying and I believe it. But yeah, the pig is still saying that, "You've just always done it, so --" You're incapable of change? Yeah, on this level. But I'm not, am I? I'm not incapable of change because I've changed. I've changed other things so I can change this. What's the benefit of actually shouting? What do you get from shouting? Okay. So there are also positives. Once it's over, although I feel bad for time and sometimes that time can be extensive, it's always like a release. And sometimes I think screaming into a pillow might be a good idea just to get that actual physical release. We have a very
18 intense life. We're together 24/7 and I'm their parent, I'm their cook, I'm their cleaner. I myself, I'm my own cook and cleaner as well, not just theirs. I'm the dog walker, I'm the nurse, I'm the teacher, I'm the primary caregiver, the emotional support. I'm a wife. My mom lives with us, so I'm also a daughter. Oh my God. I have an awful lot of hats that I'm wearing all at the same time. My head is not big enough. Kathryn, I live at home alone in an apartment with a cat. I know. Yeah, we have a lot going on and my life is great and I would never change it. And I worry about the day that they will leave home and I'm sitting in my chair and thinking, "Now what?" and some of those hats will go, and that will be sad. But I also look forward to that day because I will be such a different person because of the experiences that I'm having. And I say, I think if I could set that example, that whatever you do, whatever decision she make in life, you can come back from them. And I truly believe that because I've done it myself with lots of things. How else can you get a release? You know what, because they're getting older, I can probably go out. I think when they were younger, that would be much more challenging, but I can actually now. Even if I'm on my own, I'm very rarely the only adult in the house. But even if I was, providing that my two oldest children were in the house, I could now go out, walk around the block and come back. And I think that would stop it. And now, I know that
19 would stop it because often these things happen at a point where we all have to go out or there is a time restraint on it. I don't know how practical that is always going to be because there are sometimes, like I said, that you just have to get out. You just have to. Would you like to know a crazy thing that some of my patients used to do? Yeah. They wouldn't actually act on these, but they would keep a revenge journal. And every night, they would write down the things that got them mad and how they'd like to get even. And just knowing that that journal was there and that someday, they could do it if they really wanted to -- I always advise them not to do it. Just having it inwards knowing kind of acting out that fantasy in their head for the moment they would chuckle about it and it just took enough of the edge off that they didn't have to act on the aggression and the anger. Yeah. I could probably even do it. If we were in a point where we just had to get out of the house quickly, I could probably even record that on my phone. Yeah. Plan on a time when they're adults and they want to take you to a play or something and you just keep them waiting while you're getting ready for a couple hours. Well, it has been said. Sometimes I have said to them, "Next time you come and ask me for something, I'm saying no because you're saying no, so I'm going to say no," and that will sometimes work actually. That can be quite effective.
20 Kathryn, how confident are you that you're never going to shout again? I'm getting there. I'm still struggling to say a hundred percent. I'm really sorry. Don't be sorry, just be honest. But yes, I am definitely getting there. I feel excited by it, that's something new. I've actually got a little buzz of excitement inside me that is saying, "Yeah, let's do this." So yeah, maybe I am confident and maybe that's just the pig saying that you're not because I think I am. I know I can do this. I know I can do it. How confident are you that you're never going to shout again? I really want to say a hundred percent. I really, really do. I really want to say a hundred percent. What are you hearing that's stopping you? That tomorrow morning, they're not going to put their shoes on and I'm going to shout. I need a strategy for this. I need something else that I'm going to do other than shout. What? Maybe we just go out without shoes on. They let me do that once in this weather. That's a possibility.
21 It is a possibility. Make sure they don't step on glass or something, but -- Because when I shout, it gets me nowhere. They still don't put their shoes on. We're still late. But maybe if the expectation is that we're not going to be late and I'm not going to shout, that that actually put some of the responsibility back on them to just do what's right sometimes, and that is something they also have to learn. And so I'm teaching them in so many ways here. I'm giving them some responsibility, I'm taking responsibility for myself and my own behavior, I'm not taking responsibility for theirs, and that's a big thing 'cause it's very easy as a mother to take all the responsibility for all of your children's behavior on yourself. How confident are you that you're never going to shout again? I think I'm confident. You think? Yeah. I know I can do this. I know I can do it, I just have to shut that pig up. I do. He's just got to be quiet now. I can do this. How confident are you? I am 100 percent confident that I will never shout again. Are you?
22 Yeah, I am. Are you sure? I am never from this moment going to shout again except in an emergency. Except in an emergency. Yes, but that's not really shouting. That's not angry shouting. Well, it might be, but yeah. How confident are you that you're never going to feel like the worst mother in the universe then? I am confident. Not that I'm not going to feel it, but that I am not the worst mother in the world. That's a different level to feeling. I am 100 percent confident that I'm not the worst mother in the world. And in fact, I'm going to switch that. I am 100 percent confident that I'm the best mother for my children in the world. Excellent. Excellent. And how confident are you that you're never going to shout again except for an emergency? Yes, I am 100 percent confident of that. Is this what you wanted to accomplish today? Yes, it is. It is and I'm really excited and I can't wait for them to wake up in the morning so that I can do this, that I can never shout at them again.
23 There you go. Well, you were delightful, you were successful, I think this is going to work for you. Yes. It is. It is. I am 100 percent confident that I'm never going to shout again except in an emergency, and it's really exciting me. Kathryn, you should be excited. I am. This will change your life. It will. It actually really will change my life, so thank you very much. Okay, dear, let me know what happens. Yeah, I will do. Thank you. Bye-bye. Bye. Thanks for your time and attention. If you need personal coaching to fix your food problem fast, please visit FixYourFoodProblem.com. FixYourFoodProblem.com. If you'd like to become a certified professional Never Binge Again independent coach and turn your passion for Never Binge Again into a lucrative, rewarding and fun career, please visit BecomeAWeightLossCoach.com. That's BecomeAWeightLossCoach.com where you can attract high-paying clients by leveraging my credibility and the Never Binge Again brand
24 and help them stop overeating and obsessing about food so they can achieve their health and fitness goals at BecomeAWeightLossCoach.com. That's BecomeAWeightLossCoach.com. Thanks. For more information on how to fix your food problem fast please visit And if you'd like to help OTHERS fix their food problem using the Never Binge Again Method please visit Psy Tech Inc. All Rights Reserved
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