Kevin, welcome to the show. Thanks, Jacob. It s my pleasure. Thank you so much.

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1 Introduction: Welcome to the Enchanting Lawyer Podcast. The show that walks you step by step to improving strategies you can use today to grow your business. We show you how being kind, useful and, of course, enchanting will bring you more clients and build a thriving community. Now here s your host from sunny San Diego, Jacob Sapochnick. Hello everybody and welcome to the Enchanting Lawyer podcast. This is a show where we interview the most inspiring entrepreneurs, attorneys, and business people who share their ideas and inspire us to do good things. Today, I m actually very, very honored to have a special guest. I think this person is an innovator in the legal space and I m honored to have Kevin O Keefe here today. Kevin is the CEO and founder of LexBlog which empowers lawyers to increase their visibility and accelerate business relationship online. With LexBlog s help, legal professionals use their subject matter expertise to drive powerful business development through blogging and social media. Prior to starting LexBlog, Kevin was an attorney for 17 years and used the internet to grow his own practice. Kevin, welcome to the show. Thanks, Jacob. It s my pleasure. Thank you so much. Kevin, I introduced you briefly but why don t you share with our listeners a bit what you started and what led you to start your first technology company. I think that company was actually acquired by lawyers.com if I m not mistaken. Right. LexisNexis which own lawyers.com. I want to be a lawyer since I was a little kid. I wanted to be a lawyer because I thought that if you did good things, what a great way to earn a living. It was a very honorable profession. When I started my own law firm after breaking off another firm this is back in rural Wisconsin I didn t have any financial resources to bring in more cases. I was doing plaintiff s trial work and I had to borrow almost half a million dollars to buy my files out the associate time and out of pocket expenses. I knew the young team that I took with me were very capable at working up cases to get them to trial if need be, to sell them or go to trial. I knew we could get very good results. I wanted to build our practice based on a reputation that we were good lawyers, we cared, we could do very good job for people. How do you convey that? But then I just stumbled into the internet by dumb luck. I m not a technologist, and I started answering questions on AOL against all my better

2 judgment from [an epic 00:02:49] standpoint. But I just decided that if a lawyer would get in trouble for helping people then so be it. I looked at it like a radio show. There were thousands of people answering questions on areas that I knew something about but there was personal injury, medical malpractice, worker s comp. It basically became four to seven questions each morning and my secretary would come in, key in the answers. Then I got an intern from university and she archived the Q&A s and put them on the internet something that became to be known as a website. We would create more content that you could shake a stick at, and we created four live services. One in personal injury, one in medical malpractice, one in [client s employment 00:03:32]. I think the other must have been worker s comp. They were extremely busy. They had lawyers answering people s questions. We might have been doing 30 or 40 pieces a day on each of those listeners. So you can imagine the amount of content that we re creating at a tiny little law firm in Wisconsin. At the end of 1998 after a couple of years of this, realized Perey Law. Perey Law move from Wisconsin to Seattle for the financial and human capital and that was sold to lawyers.com. They would have articles, ask a lawyer, [unclear 00:04:13], chats, all that type of stuff. The focus was the more people that you would help, the more work you would get because the notoriety would build. People would pass those answers around because they came from the heart. We just want to stack answers but at the same time they were only two, three paragraphs long. And you build an intimate relationship of trust with people. So, for the few people that were using internet in Wisconsin that did find me, they felt like they knew me at the time they approached me. So I just said it was a no brainer to use the internet that way going forward lawyers. That s why I left the practice. And you know, Kevin, it s interesting while I m listening to what you re saying, you pretty much embrace the notion that lawyers that are hording information, that are keeping inside the firm in exchange for fee are actually making a mistake. Because the more information you give out, the more you share, the more you get. Even today, 2015, lawyers are still not doing that. Why do you think is that? I don t know. A lot of it is just short sighted. For me, how did I start to pick up certain philosophies, I went to Barnes and Noble and I went to the business section because there was no Barnes and Noble for a long time in my hometown.

3 When it came, I started reading the business books and they just opened my mind that there was a different way of looking at the world that I didn t look at the world as a lawyer through age 40. So you just start to look at the world differently. But, you know, take it outside the law. Just go to Mayo Clinic. Mayo Clinic has a social media initiative underway that s been underway for about three years when we had the issues of healthcare institution setting that we re struggling. Their CEO came out and said we re going to start a social media initiative. The doctors and the other ministers thought he was nuts. In- house counsel thought he was nuts because they weren t using social media. But you look at what they ve done today, they give it all away. Nobody s going to go and do brain surgery. They get all information there. Nobody s going to go prescribe medication. They can t but they give it all away. They re giving everything away. It basically empowers people that build trust. People also are gravitated to those people that care enough to give it away, to share, to give it themselves. If a lawyer was asked to go to their town square or to their arena and be the only lawyer in town and talk about particular subject and then take questions from the audience, of course they would go. Well, this is better than that. Who knows? But the more you give the more you ll get. And it s not just a reverse karma thing, it s building intimate relationships of trust with people and then shining out like a star, as a lawyer. Absolutely. One of my favorite books is Youtility. It s written by Jay Baer. I m sure you heard of him. He was a guest on the show. He basically says that whatever you do you have to become a Youtility. For no reason but to give away good information and become so useful that people will come to you because they believe in what you do. For us attorneys we have the tools to do that but yet we still charge for everything and we still create that image that we are it s not about people, it s about profits, and I think it s time to change that. You could look at it from the other way. This is a way to save money because the time it takes to blog is a fraction of the cost of having to go out into by marketing or by advertising. Lawyers might be spending pennies to come up with a very good blog, figure out how to do it, those type of things. Make sure it s search engine optimize. That s pennies compared to what they d be spending in advertising or the forms of marketing. Absolutely. Kevin, before we talk about LexBlog, and I have a lot of interesting questions that I m curious to know, I have two important questions to ask you. First I wanted to

4 know your opinion. What do you think lawyers, and law students, need to know today about social media? That s a good question. I think it s hard to answer that until the lawyer of the law student knows what they want to do in life. What you want to do, who do you want to do it for. I don t really view social media as anything different than anything that s been going on forever. Understand that this term social media wasn t around when I started LexBlog. It wasn t around when I was using the internet on AOL. Nobody wrote me in with some term that you needed to understand. I just was a person. It s just being yourself. Is social media being at a golf course and sharing a piece of news with somebody? Yeah. Is it taking somebody to a baseball game and telling him about something that you read at some place? Yeah. Now, nobody would say that social media but everything is social media. It s a [unclear 00:09:29] that coined by the communications profession when they needed to hang on to some before their companies and their careers went away. I think I see it more of I think you mentioned it as well building relationships. It s all about Right now we have the option to do this online because we can reach more people. But in the old days, I guess I ve only been practicing for about 11 years. I came with the internet. But probably 20 years ago you had to build relationship offline. Meet people, you give them value. It s still true today, right, when you engage online. Yeah. I started practicing 33 years ago. There were no computers in any law offices or there s no internet. I didn t even hear the word internet until 1996 I think and I ve been practicing for 13 years at that point in time. And what you did in those days, what you worked really, really hard, and you just got to know people, and that was about it. If you were in the good fortune to knock on doors and get a job at a firm that had some work and to get work from those clients which I did. That s how I got a job, I just knocked on doors. The same time that I made sure that I visited those clients, you just had fun with them, they were my friends. People in town, I became friends with them. It s just who I was and they referred work to you over time. It s all it is. It s just a different way of being out there doing stuff. It all depends [unclear 00:11:15] social media or let s say social networking and maybe those terms are a little bit different. It s very easy to reach people. The other thing is, I think, that lawyers should not lose sight of. You can be a rock star in a niche whether it s locally, statewide, or nationally. People do not realize that. You can even pick.

5 Think about it Jacob, I could go right down in the states and say, Okay, I want to look at this network of blogs and see who is really good in what stage and look at my state and they don t have one. Oh my God! I can earn millions of dollars by building expertise in that area as I continue to do the type of work I m doing and begin to blog on that issue. Look at it that way from the standpoint of not just relationships but reputation building, breaking up those people. It s funny that you mention rock star because I think that this is one of the we are in a time where lawyers can actually scale so much. And I look at my own practice. In 11 years I was able to dominate immigration law in my space. We have the largest Facebook page in the world for any law firm and people perceive us as experts. Hopefully we do good work, and I believe that we do, but it s more than that because now people feel that we are above these other people. Just because of the use of social media and giving back and answering questions and just being as a resource. I wanted to quote somebody that you mentioned. I read that you said that the price of engaging a social media goes far beyond the return of investment that can be calculated. The price, failing to do so, is irrelevant. The world may never know who you are and what you can do. For lawyers, this is a [death 00:13:01] blog, right? Yeah. It s so easy to do things now. And that s whether you have the biggest [unclear 00:13:15] as far as trying to figure out how to get lawyers to do this niche. It s really to inspire them. It s one thing to me that my people are saying why you should understand this stuff because [unclear 00:13:25]. In my community of 50,000, 60,000 people, we never had a 150 lawyers. I don t know how many of them really enjoyed going out, spending time with people and whatnot. May not have been 30 of them. We can t go out and beat on the other people and say, Boy, you guys should get this and just enjoy life and have fun with your clients and that type of stuff. Because the minute I tell people that [unclear 00:13:54] understand how scary it is for me and they go, Oh no, it doesn t appear scary to you. For those other lawyers, it s really to inspire them to in my opinion at least What would it be like to put your kids through college? What would that feel like? What would it feel like for you and your husband to go on vacation once a year, a really nice place, and not worry about what it cost? What would it feel like to have somebody invite you to speak at a conference and ask you and your wife to come and stay on there, dine. They would fly you there. How would that feel? How special would that feel?

6 You and your spouse could know that you never need to worry about where revenues going to come from for the next 25 years as a practicing lawyer because you developed a reputation and relationships that would allow you to have that income stream. You to be the one contributing to the church, you would be the one contributing back to your university. Just as a way of normal course of events. How exciting would that be? What would that feel like? Could you make the decision that you could do that? Here s how you could do that. If you can do that I think that s what s really important. That s what I tell lawyers today is to decide, make that decision, draw that line in the sand, get out of the line of sheep, and decide to do something different. And then we ll figure out a way to actually make it happen. My job, or LexBlog s job, is to inspire people to do those things and inspire them [unclear 00:15:42] to do these other things. That was actually the next question I wanted to ask you. You answer it in a way. A few future reasons why lawyers should be using social media or building relationship online today, and you mentioned a few of those now building reputation, becoming the go- to person. Why is it so important to start doing it now for building your practice in the future? Well, all of them is what you want. I think for lawyers that are going to be in their 30s that are in larger firms, if you haven t carved out a book of business, you re going to be a liability to the firm. They re going to want to get rid of you because if they don t get rid of you by a certain age you re going to be an age discrimination claim waiting to happen. That sounds absolutely awful but that s absolutely true. If I can find lawyers and pay them 135 or 150 to do almost as much as what you re capable of doing and you want $500,000 or $600,000, why would I keep you? The pressure on profitability is so great you become a cog in a system. Very real financial concerns. Also, there s a lot of firms that merge and they take the rainmakers and they might leave other people behind. All those issues that you have that you need to worry about. And then on the software side, this is the real site, need to feel good about what you re doing. There s I don t know what the percentage of lawyers that suffer from depression is but it s very high. It s the highest incidence of depression on any profession. The reason is that it s stressful, you re suffering. My God, you re sitting in an office or a cube and you re doing deposition summaries, you re doing litigation because you re not in court trying cases like lawyers in smaller firms. Or if you re doing transactional work you re just reviewing documents and changing documents all the time. You don t feel like you re doing it, you re not out there.

7 What happens if the largest airline in the country comes in and becomes a client because you blogged. That s interesting. What happens if you re speaking at the Kentucky Derby, within one year when you started [unclear 00:18:14] law blog. That s interesting. Or you decided that you like doing business and solution work and now you get 100% of your work from relationships you go from blogging and you re charging a pretty high rate in downtown Manhattan. That s cool. When I hear these people s stories it gives me goosebumps. Think on the software side too. Let s talk about LexBlog and you mentioned some of the beautiful stories that you hear from attorneys. Tell me how you started and why you started it, and how LexBlog empowers attorneys to build relationship online. I wasn t doing that to start a blogging company. I had started a non- profit that was going to allow consumers to ask questions of lawyers through technology I had gotten from a local company. That ran into a roadblock on the technology side. And so I decided rather than go back into the production law, I wanted to share with lawyers how they should use the internet because I saw all the cockamamie things that they were doing. And I would say the cockamamie things they re doing today 10 times worse than the cockamamie things they were doing back in 2013 when I was still looking to put stuff online. I looked it. What should I use? Website, , newsletter, [unclear 00:19:44], message boards, you name it. I had done all these things. I bumped in a little tiny article in Business 2.0 about a company called TypePad who is going to have 10,000 subscribers in 90 days. I thought that was fascinating because they were pain. And so it look like AOL like uptake. I went to see what it was. Turned out to be a vehicle where you could write stuff and put it on the internet. That turned out to be a blog. I didn t know what the heck it was. I put some pieces up and people contacted me from across the country small firms, large firms asking me questions on what I was writing on and also asking me questions on blogging. And then somebody invited me to come down and speak in Northern California, San Francisco and they introduced me as the national leader for blogs for lawyers which I thought was really fine. And then people came up and said, Could you help me? and I m thinking, Help you with what? Then I went back to a friend of mine s place in Silicon Valley. I was staying on his futon because I want to preserve the nest egg of money that I had which wasn t enough to last that long. I said, Can I do blogs for lawyers? He thought it was really kind of funny. He s a legal technologist himself, he s not very well. I said, No. I m really afraid that people can see my blog. I really was. I thought it looks silly, and I really didn t know what I was doing. As somebody that was a

8 professional, I didn t want people to come and see me if I really didn t know what I was doing professionally. So I bulleted out a list. Literally, just took a pencil and a piece of paper and [unclear 00:21:33] what I want. One, I don t know what I m doing. I need some type of strategy. Next, I need great design. Next, I need great development. I needed to be hosted. I needed to be search engine optimized. I need some type of coaching. I don t know what I [unclear 00:21:48]. It was like seven things. I m going support. Then I go, okay, that s what it needs. A friend of his was playing with whether we could put designs on these things while we were up in San Francisco, and it turns out you could. He agreed to do the designs. That was it. [Unclear 00:22:12]. I don t know. X number of weeks we threw a LexBlog site up, listed these things off, and I blogged. The more I blogged the more people that came. I couldn t keep up with the volume of people that were contacting us to help them in the beginning. So LexBlog would have been a lot bigger if I probably would have taken on investors at the time from a business development standpoint or also a tech develop. I just made some decisions that I did not want to accelerate the rate of growth of blogging because it would have brought out more people in competition back then. To me, it was so patently obviously that this work. The first time that I went over before I went down to San Francisco into the book store There were only two books on blogging: one was written by Biz Stone, the founder of Was involved with Blogger [unclear 00:23:07] and Twitter. There was another one though that was a little bit more meaningful for me and that was Rebecca Blood called The Weblog Handbook. Rebecca talked about blogs for plumbers. If you were doing work around your house, a handy work, and you follow this person s blog, and you came downstairs you had an inch of water in the floor one morning, who would you call? It was obvious. I used to call those plumbers in law school. I said, Let s not get carried away from our self. We re going to bill about $20 more an hour to plumbers. As soon as she reading this I realized this would be very, very, very big. That s how LexBlog started. It was based on people say, How do I know it will work? And I say, You don t but you have to have faith. Because at the end of a year, if it s not the greatest thing in the world you ve ever made an investment, you just give me a call and I ll refund whatever sum of money you think is fair, period. But it won t happen. So I still do it today. We re doing right now in the company is rather than continuing to increase the prices we re going to democratize blogging for the American lawyer. We re going

9 to bring it back down in price. We ll bring those layers on a network where they can blog among themselves, that they have their own site but they ll grow their influence by hanging around with more influential people. See, that s where the internet is really headed. Lawyers don t understand that. Lawyers don t understand it through machine learning if they give it themselves and they re hanging around with other influential lawyers, they will be looked at as more influential so they got to share whoever they go to share it. It s going to do better and more people are going to share it. Sorry to get carried away. No, no, no. I can see the passion and LexBlog is a beautiful product. When did you start? What year? Wow! I m going to have a conversation with Tim Stanley later today. They started Justia. I started my first blog late It was just the beginning of legal blogging as you describe it. Ask Tim about LexBlog. Absolutely! Oh yeah. I know you guys know each other. I can tell you that my connection with Tim and Stacy back in the early days was really the beginning and the reason why I was able to succeed in my legal career because they give me the push to get the information out there to clients. I was looking for a way to do this. It was before Facebook. They re great people. They were the first people that I met back in 99 or 98 traveling out to California. I ve been communicating with Stacy as she was building the taxonomy. Tim was good at technology. Tim and I are close friends. Yeah, I know. That s why I mentioned it. For our listeners, Tim and Stacy are the original founders of FindLaw where it was real find law, when it was free law and not what it is today. I m not going to say more about that. We ll talk to him also about websites and other stuff. Kevin, I know you have to go. I just wanted to ask you one last question. You ve been working a lot with law schools and law students and I really admire that because I do the same. I teach at some legal incubators, I spoke at a conference in San Diego a few months ago. Law students are really delusion as to what is out there. In a few sentences, why don t you tell me a little bit what you re going to be doing in Michigan and what do you think law students should be doing now as they graduate to succeed in law?

10 Yeah. I m going back to Michigan State. I ll be back there the second time. I ve done some programs online for them too. I told the team this morning I do it for my [unclear 00:27:17] and they thought that was kind of funny. They thought I was serious. [Unclear 00:27:23] or something. The interesting thing about law students, they inspire me. I m seeing a select group of law students because when I show up I m getting the people that they are excited that want to learn and talk and engage. I ve seen them at many schools across the country. I get totally jazzed. I hear all this woe is me. I m not sure I can get a job as a lawyer. My student loans are so high. I m inside the law firm and life is not as good. Yet, I see these eyes look back at me and they re totally inspired. They want to be a lawyer. They want to be a lawyer for the right reasons. It s all over the board and the type of work they want to do. It s not legal services work or something. They can be working in major law firms and whatnot. What are the opportunities is what they want to know. They want to learn. What I want the law students to know is that they can build relationships and they can build a reputation while they re in law school unlike you could ever do so before. When you isolate those students it have done so that have gotten jobs. There s a student at Michigan State that s headed down to Australia right now on an internship. There s a student grad from Michigan State a year ago, a year plus ago, that s working at a leading firm in Detroit. Another one got a clerkship in London off of Twitter. Now, they had a blog, they were blogging, they had other things that gave them [unclear 00:29:15] and their presence. There was another student that s going to come out and all of a sudden she tells me how she s going to work in the food industry outside Wenatchee. I go, Wenatchee, Washington? Tiny town [unclear 00:28:27] from here. Well, she already developed [natural 00:29:30] application. She was already invited to the Bay Area to a conference. Think about that. When I was in law school, I hardly had any reputation outside the classroom, if not role in the classroom, and it wasn t necessarily a great reputation. These kids are developing reputations that are national in nature and regional. I get a little bit carried away here but just to explain in St. Thomas in Minnesota there was a young woman from I think it was Fargo. Might have been a different city in North Dakota but asked her I said, Would you consider going back there? She goes, I might. I said, Well, you re one now. How would you like to be the most famous lawyer in Fargo among the community and lawyers,

11 maybe by the time you re between your second and third year law student? She s going, Yeah, but how? We said, Well, how about you start to highlight certain local businesses on Facebook? You start to cover certain local legal news on a blog called Fargo Legal News something like that, or maybe it s in Facebook. Who knows? You create Twitter list of executives in Fargo. The Chamber of Commerce had the CEO and the officers at the largest healthcare institutions, gather major employers. So they all know you because you give a little favorite or you re- tweeted other stuff. Everybody knows you. So by the time that you re 3 rd year law student you ll get to work there because some law firms aren t going to want other law firms to get you. You ll be known in the community, you ll be known among the people in the community. Think about that. You d be known by the executives at the healthcare institutions, you d be known at the Chamber of Commerce, you d be known in Chamber of Commerce board. You d be known by the leaders in the law firms. You d be known by consumers and small business people in the community. Never ever before could you do that. Now, somebody has to teach a law student how to do that. To do it in an inspiring way where they think it s possible. What I m starting to realize is me just telling people that stuff or blogging it isn t enough. You have to go and teach it. Because understandably [unclear 00:31:55] development offices have never used this stuff in ways that maybe you have or I have. It s hard to just pick it up second nature, and law professors certainly have it. And then you have Michigan State certainly just not have this going on. Some law schools which are not really open to this for fear that they need to protect the students or for fear that they don t know it and they don t want to tell people that they don t know it. I love Michigan State for what they re doing. That was my impression too, Kevin. Whenever I go to these seminars and participate in workshops, a lot of professors they re not out there. They re afraid of what is out there and they re afraid that they don t know. And so it s easier to go back and say, Well, this is what you should be doing and not more than that. That s why I like what you re saying too. You had a controversial article you wrote for law students, giving them tips and encouraging them that this is the best time to be in law school because we have social media, we have all these tools to build relationship before we graduate. So I think this is beautiful. That post is still the most popular post I ve ever written. It might be 5 years old. All my point was, hey, it was really hard to get a job in a small town in Wisconsin.

12 There were no jobs I was told by the firms. I was told to go other communities. All I had was [unclear 00:33:23] and all I had was overcoming my fear for a couple of hours. I literally knocked on doors and I waited to see the lead partner in the firm. And if I bug them enough I was hoping that somebody would offer me a job. $1000 a month or $1500 a month wasn t that expensive to pay me. And so finally somebody did and they figured out how to get me some work. Okay? Today, all I m saying is it can be equally as scary, it can be less jobs, I understand that. But, you can make up that difference by using the internet to build a name for yourself. Maybe there s more people that you will get the opportunity to meet. I don t know. I love that. I think we can conclude this interview by saying that now more than ever, the future of law is so bright with all the tools and technology we have. All you have to do is just open your eyes and use it. Just use it, right, and you d be successful. Kevin, I really appreciate the time. LexBlog.com is where you can find all the tools. I encourage our listeners, if you don t have a blog yet, check out lexblog.com. Kevin, if you want to share your Twitter handle for people who want to follow you. It s just I know you ve been giving me some hard time online because I don t use my name, I use the visa lawyer blog. I built so many fans on Twitter, I m afraid to change it maybe one of these days. Kevin, it was a true pleasure. Good luck in Michigan and I look forward to stay connected with you online. Thank you. Pleasure. To you listeners, if you have any questions and follow- up on what you heard today, me jacob@enchantinglawyer.com and we look forward to seeing you at our next episode. Have a blessed day. Closing: Thanks for listening. You can find even more resources, including the show notes for this episode, at enchantinglawyer.com. That s

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