Text transcript of show #83. September 26, 2007

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1 Hanselminutes is a weekly audio talk show with noted web developer and technologist Scott Hanselman and hosted by Carl Franklin. Scott discusses utilities and tools, gives practical how-to advice, and discusses ASP.NET or Windows issues and workarounds. Text transcript of show #83 Interview with Shawn Burke on Microsoft's.NET Source Code Scott and Carl talk with Shawn Burke on the culmination of his many-year-old plan to get parts of the source of the.net Framework released. With Visual Studio 2008, a simple process will allow developers to STEP INTO the.net Framework Source from the IDE. This'll be a great debugging and learning tool. (Transcription services provided by PWOP Productions) Our Sponsors Copyright PWOP Productions Inc. Page 1 of 8

2 Lawrence Ryan: From hanselminutes.com, it's Hanselminutes, a weekly discussion with web developer and technologist, Scott Hanselman, hosted by Carl Franklin. This is Lawrence Ryan, announcing show #83, recorded live Tuesday, September 25, Support for Hanselminutes is provided by Telerik RadControls, the most comprehensive suite of components for Windows Forms and ASP.NET web applications, online at and by.net Developers Journal, the world's leading.net developer magazine, online at In this episode, Shawn Burke from Microsoft makes an announcement that will change the way you write and debug.net code. Hi, this is Carl Franklin. You're listening to Hanselminutes from hanselminutes.com. I'm here with Scott and his special guest, Shawn Burke. Hi guys. Hi Carl. How's it going, sir? So, Carl, we got a surprise for you. Even though we're recording this on Tuesday, this is Friday probably or Thursday afternoon when the show goes live and Shawn has got a little something he wants to share with the group here. Okay, this is a scoop then. This is a scoop. This is our internal Microsoft scoop we've got. Awesome. Let's hear it. All right, guys. I'm pretty excited about this and I've been working on it for a couple of years. We are going to be rolling out a program that allows the developers to have access to.net framework source code. Wow! I mean we have Reflector, this is the source code. This isn't -- what is it, Mono or the other project that? Roeder? Yeah, Roeder. No, it's not those. This is the actual source code for the.net framework. It's not Reflector. This allows you to actually in Visual Studio step into.net framework calls, walk to the.net framework code, and then you can build a better app. Wow! That's amazing. So, you're going to be able to F11 into the code is what you're saying. Yeah, absolutely. It's not just the symbols? Well, it's the symbols and the code, so you get what we call full retail symbols. Those symbols are not stripped of member variable names and stuff like that. Along with that we're going to have a server that has the code on it. So, what happens is Visual Studio, you do a couple of quick configuration steps with your Visual Studio 2008 and then once that's set up, you ll magically start to get source and symbols for the code that you're debugging against. That's incredible, Shawn. Can I ask you why like what prompted this? Was there a big demand for it? There has been a demand for it. There's actually a long story with this. I've been working on this as kind of a side project now for several years. Several years ago, I did a blog posting about kind of ruminating how we could deliver source code for Windows Forms. Which is a project that I was part of at that point in time and it generated a lot of excited. We had a fair amount of support for it internally and it turns out releasing source for us has got a lot of moving parts associated with it and it's just taken some time to kind of figure out the right story as far as how we can deliver it to developers in a way it's really easy for them to manage. There are a bunch of issues around like "Hey, what happened when we released QFEs or SPs and the source goes out of date?" and stuff like that. So, we didn't really have a really tight story and we wanted to make sure that we had a good story around this before we release it and with the new version of Visual Studio Orcas we were able to add some features on the client side, Visual Studio side, and then come up with a story for the backend server side that it gives a really nice seamless story, so developers can just do a quick configuration step, but not installing zipped files and setting symbol pass and doing a bunch of stuff like that for different products. It's one setup and then you Page 2 of 8

3 get the source for everything that we have available at the time. And it just trickles down, right? It just trickles down exactly. And this is for all versions of the framework including 3.5? What we're doing is we're going to be releasing source for kind of the core framework immediately and we're looking at a bunch of other stuff and trying to decide exactly which pieces we're going to release above and beyond that over time, but this is set up in a way that we can kind of make these decisions and we don't have to make them all right now. Developers can continue to get code over time until we can kind of trickle these out. We're building essentially a platform for this. The teams/groups across Microsoft now have the option if it makes sense for their business to go ahead and release source and a reference model for developers. Yeah, I'm looking up here at shawnburke.com. This is February of orientation, they brought in an LCA. They brought in Legal and Corporate Affairs and they kind of put the fear into us and told us all sorts of legal things and protecting the company. Basically, if you want to do anything, you talk to LCA, you talk to Legal and Corporate Affairs. Is this primarily a legal issue? Certainly, it's not a technical one, right? Actually, like I mentioned, the issue about how you deal with updates and multiple versions and stuff like that is a technical issue. So, there actually is a fair amount of technical stuff involved. The other project I run, which is the AJAX control toolkit is another issue that we're kind of shipping source written by Microsoft developers. So, I'm fortunate to have a great relationship with our LCA folks and they're really smart and understand the technical issues. I was able to sit down with them and kind of patch this out and understand what the risks were and took it up through my management chain and had some really good open conversations with them about the benefits and the costs and the risks. We felt like it's the right thing and it's going to help our developers be successful on the platform. Like I said, we have a story that makes sense for delivery and update and the pieces just kind of all came together. started. Yeah, that's kind of when it all Wow. Shawn, I'm still kind of curious as to what kind of requests you had and problems that people were having that only having the source was the only answer to? Wow. It just says right there "I want to deliver Windows Forms source code to you. I want to do it for years and I'm putting together a plan to make it happen." What does it feel like to have a Carl. Actually, I can speak to that, Yeah, sure. Yes. That's how fast I was. Actually, as someone who's worked at Microsoft now for a massive two weeks, I have extensive experience navigating over the last 14 days and I could say that things do move a little slower than I was expecting. Yeah, I haven't been working on it steady for that long. This is something that I had been working on in spurts and finally got really good traction on and got a good plan pulled together, six or eight months ago maybe, and then it's been pretty good progress since then. What kind of things do you bump into? I know that during new employee So, I worked at Corillian, right? We did online finance and e-banking and one time I had to call up PSS and get a hotfix for something in ASP.NET. I had to get it and it escalated and escalated. I was spending time going back and forth with the hotfix engineer trying to explain to him exactly what was going on. It was a little unusual, but I was actually able to tell him with Reflector kind of where I was in the source, but I didn't know what files, I didn't know what lines. I was basically saying I'm in this function, in this class, all the member variables are wrong. The Reflector of course is not showing you the source. Reflector is showing you kind of the programmer's intent gleaned from the intermediate language, so it's not reality, but for the purposes of my debugging session, it was my reality. So, I had to mentally sync back and forth with a guy who was Page 3 of 8

4 actually sitting there looking at the source and telling him "here is the line." Of course, it wasn't the line because one line in Reflector might be two lines in the source. We eventually synced up and the hot fix came out and it's been pushed into all the versions of the framework, but that whole multi-hour, six- to eighthour experience of going back and forth with this guy could have been made much easier if I had simply said, "Look, I've actually found something. This is how it works and this is how it ought to work." That's what it tells me. Well, that's an even more advanced scenario. The simple scenario is that especially when you're new to something or using a feature you haven't used before and you're getting this exception from deep in the bowels that you can't figure out. The docs don't tell you what this exception's doing, why you're getting this exception. The newsgroups aren't telling you why you're getting this exception and there is nobody who's doing that it's because you're doing something just totally wacky, right? You just did something along the way that's completely backwards. the other. You or your hardware, one or You or your hardware, exactly. So, when you have the source, usually that's trivial to figure out. You can go to Visual Studio and say break on exceptions and make it happen and go, "Oh! It's because I didn't set the lambda variable to 12," or whatever like that and it ends up being very simple to track down those sorts of issues if you can walk through the code. If you can't, they end up being you kind of have to triangulate and do You have to glean. A lot of kind of back flips to figure it out. There are a lot of simple scenarios where having the source allows developers to be much more effective in how they're using the outer platform. I see. So, even if you could look at the code that through the exception and walk into it and see, when it says "null reference exception," it's because I didn't pass in blah, blah, blah. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I can understand that. Scott and I have been talking about using symbol servers and things like that and I thought with the symbols that would be enough for you to look at a representation of the source code as well. No? The symbols don't help you too much with managed code. Really? If you think about native code for a second, if you don't have symbols for native code, what you get in your call frame is user32.exe, bang! Some hex number. that's totally useless. Yeah, offset. And another hex number, so With the symbols with native code, with stripped retail symbols; you'll get a function name at least and an offset and based on that, the engineer can go back on our site, can go back and figure out what line of code it is based on the offset, so you're kind of forward a little bit there with the retail stuff. With managed code, you always get the call stack. Even without symbols, you always get the function names. Right. You're kind of already there to begin with. When you add in symbols like stripped symbols for managed code, then you might get some variable names in the local's window. Shawn, what's a stripped symbol? Essentially, there are full retail symbols. If you go to your machine right now and you create a project and you flip the configuration to retail, you build it, those are like full retail symbols. They have all the line numbers in them. They have all the source filenames in them. They have all the member variable names in them and everything. Stripped symbols are kind of symbols that don't have that stuff. I'm pretty sure the symbols that you get like off of the old Windows NT disks, I'm not sure what's up on symbol server, but those I assume are stripped because they don't have file line numbers in them. They just have function names and variable names and stuff like that. Page 4 of 8

5 Okay. and just magically you get the new PDB. understands the versions. You get the new source. It Right, primarily function names and variable names. It's the name of source code file that would then cause Visual Studio to say, "Oh, using this offset, I found this function. I now want to go looking for this file," if you've ever had Visual Studio prompt you to open a file you didn't have. And if you happen to be debugging and you hit some code that doesn't have source available, what do you get? You get the existing experience. Yup. That's exactly right. All right. Great. Now, you'll have that file. I'm guessing here, right, Shawn? At that point where Visual Studio would ordinarily go looking for the file in a few places, look in the path, look in the current folder, before it pops open that dialogue, now it has another step. It's going to go off somewhere on the Internet. Yup. It's actually really seamless. All you need to do in Visual Studio is you just need to tell it where to go out on the Internet to get the symbols. So, it will do its regular symbol search and then it finds the symbol server that we're putting together for the reference stuff, it finds that guy and it will download that symbol file, that PDB, and in that PDB is all the URLs to the source files. No way. So, it's actually kind of a nice cascading story. You get the PDB and you're done. So, all you have to do is put in the URL, the symbol server and the source code will trickle down to you. That's exactly right. Sweet! Yeah, it's really slick. What happens is that when you get a new version either when we add more source up there, next time you debug, Visual Studio will go, "Oh! Well, now I can find the symbol for this other.dll that I couldn't find last time," and boom! You get more. If versions change, you update -- we haven't really decided how often we're going to push this up, but say SP for sure, you get an SP, boom! We push up the new SP symbols Which is you either get if there's no PDB available, you'll get assembly language, "No source available for this location." I think maybe the scenario you're asking for is what if the PDB points at a file that isn't on the server? Yeah, well, that too. That shouldn't happen. Okay. Shawn just said something that was very interesting there. It was kind of a throwaway statement, but it was interesting to me where he said that "and the versions are all taken care of for you." So, there is a hash somewhere that's keeping track. Nice. Because when something's built, these PDBs get created. Everything needs to line up. If I remember correctly, when you set up a symbol server or a source server and you can actually go up on MSDN and read up on how to make your own internal source server, so your own company could have a source server. It's really primarily a way to lay out a directory structure, isn't it? Exactly. I work pretty closely with the guy that invented that technology. We've been using that technology here internally at Microsoft for years. You can pretty much run any debug product here at Microsoft and automatically you get source and symbols through this exact same technology. Page 5 of 8

6 Wow. Cool. and symbol server. We have a centralized source So, you have a choice between just symbols or symbols and source. Yeah, that's great. Yeah, yeah. So, it can handle like essentially infinite numbers of versions side by side. Cool. one symbol server? Very cool. Can you point to more than It's just Xcopy. It can lay out right next to each other because of the way the file is structured. So, Shawn, when does this happen and where can we get the URL and the instructions for plugging it in? This is going to be available about the time we release Orcas. Cool. The servers aren't online yet, so we don't have a final URL. We're kind of working out those levels of details, working with teams right now to figure out exactly what's going to be in our kind of launch lineup of stuff that's available. Even after that, what's nice because this is a server side story that we can continue to roll out additional offerings as time goes on. That's fabulous. So, we've been promoting symbol servers, Carl and I, just because I think they're cool by setting up in different machines and the environment variable showing them how symbol servers are not just used by Visual Studio, but also by Process Explorer. Yup. Yup. If we've already set ourselves up for I think it's msdl.microsoft.com or whatever the symbol server is, is this going to be a different server, different DNS name? It will be a different one. Yeah, you will be able to. You guys brought up an interesting point, which is what happens if you have a source file in both places. I assume it will find the first -- the way that the symbol's resolution works is it goes in order, so I think as long as you configure the symbols and source one above that are just the symbols one, you get that PDB and then you'll be in good shape. I think it's just an ordering issue because if you go to the dialogue in Visual Studio, it does have ordering. I'm sure that one of the things that you've had to think about is the sizing of this. I've always thought it was interesting when I hit a website with IE 7.0 or with Firefox, they'd go off and they look at a phishing server. So, I always think to myself if every single person in the entire planet were using this product that would be this central point of failure. How you decide to size that? I mean you have a sense of how many Visual Studios are out there, but you don't really know how many people are going to hook this up. So, you're just talking about what our capacity is? I'm working with the folks over at MSDN that are implementing the server side. They'll put together some numbers for that. The really nice thing about this technology, Scott, is that the server side is a static file server. Nice, nice. Right. So, you're not dealing with like something is doing a bunch of back flips. Page 6 of 8

7 Yup. acronyms? Can you define some of those In server code, we all know that file servers are pretty darn good, you know, IIS Fastest. Engineering. Yeah, sorry. I will in a second. I know QFE is Quick Fix out static files. Pretty darn good at throwing Yup, especially when you add caching and things now. That's one of them. Exactly. The scaling of this would be easy. As long as it's behind the DNS name, then everything else is easy. Right. What it means is that from our point of view, it's pretty easy for us to do the math about exactly what a server can handle. Right. We're pretty confident in that. So, that's the upside we're working a bunch of numbers to figure out exactly what kind of capacity we need. The real issue isn't so much the source as it is the symbol files because symbol files are a lot bigger. Right. So, it's more about the size of the space because if you start thinking about all of the source and all of the symbols and then you think about -- can you talk about red bits versus green bits and how those things can be a little confusing because we all think we have the.net Framework 2.0 on our system, but we might have a hot fix or a patch. That counts as different PDBs, right? Different source. Well, that's separate from red bits/green bits. What you're talking about is just that every time you roll out either a QFE if you call up, I think you can just download them now, but if you call up PSS and get a QFE or you get a GDR that comes down through Windows Update. Yeah, okay. QFE, it's called Quick Fix Engineering. QFE is a hot fix. We call them QFEs. That's usually one or two assemblies. It fixes a specific issue with your bits. The thing about the QFEs is that they're cumulative over time. As we build QFEs, there's no way for us to manage building them all independently off of the original source trunk. So, they are cumulative over time. That means as time goes on, if you get a later QFE, you're likely to get kind of more updated assemblies in a lot of cases, which is going to make it more likely that some of the stuff is going to be out of date. Service Packs for us primarily are rolled up QFEs with a higher level of testing, so we get to a point and it's kind of all the cumulative QFEs between the last Service Pack, that Service Pack plus a bunch of additional testing to kind of make sure they all fit together and work. Okay, and GDR? GDR is a General Development. GDRs are like kind of urgent QFEs. Okay. It's not as big as a Service Pack, but a GDR is for like something really bad. You were saying before when I interrupted you about the acronyms. the way. Thank you for doing that, by No problem. Go ahead. No, you were saying before something when I interrupted you about the acronyms. Right. So, he was talking about the issue of pushing the data around isn't as complicated as getting the structure of the file system Page 7 of 8

8 set up because you get kind of a Cartesian product diversions and QFEs and different versions of the framework. I see. So, a major/minor build revision Yes. That's incredible. Cool, huh? I think it's pretty fantastic. I'm stoked. So, this will be out when Orcas is released, when Visual Studio 2008 is released? It could be quite a lot of data. Well, hard drives are cheap, so the data isn't as big of a deal as it is. On your given machine, what's the likelihood that one or more of the things that you are trying to debug are going to be out of date and that we won't have symbols and source available for them? Awesome. Awesome. Shawn, thank you. Scott, thank you, man. Thanks guys. This is something I think that we're just going to have to do some learning. It's really hard for us to know what exactly the right cadence is as far as pushing updates out there. I think we're just going to take feedback. The system, it set up; it's very easy for us to push new updates out there. We don't know if it makes sense for us to push every QFE out there or not. Awesome. I know. That's pretty cool, huh? All right. We'll see you next time on Hanselminutes. So, is this an Orcas-specific thing or does it go back to Express and does it go back to 2005? It does not go back to There is actually functionality in VS 2008 Orcas that supports this. Okay. Now, when you say "this," you're talking about the source code? The source server. The ability to kind of actually go do an HTTP request for a source file that's the kind of core piece. Oh, I see. I see. Okay. Listen, we're just about out of time, but what a scoop! Page 8 of 8

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