Episode 2 with Guest Ali Brown

Transcription

1 Episode 2 with Guest Ali Brown Welcome to Episode Number 2 of Boost Your Sales & Lifestyle. I'm your host Lisa Sasevich, also known as The Queen of Sales Conversion. I am the founder of The Invisible Close Sale Systems and the Sales Authenticity and Success Yearlong Mastermind for Entrepreneurs. I am very excited that on today's show, we are going to be talking with Ali Brown. I can't to share how we know each other and the incredible difference that she has made on my own entrepreneurial success path. Specifically, we're going to be getting into some ways that Ali has been giving herself permission lately to reinvent her model and really change how she sells in her business. She's an expert at positioning to really stand out above the crowd. She's going to share with you some ways that she does that, so you can take those to the bank right away. Ali has really been stepping out in the area of leadership, so I'm excited to dig in and find out a lot more about that today too. Are you ready to get sassy with me? Let's dive in. Announcer: Welcome to the Boost Your Sales & Lifestyle show with Lisa Sasevich, The Queen Of Sales Conversion. Lisa teaches experts who are making a difference how to get their message out and enjoy massive results without being salesy. Lisa is here to lift you up, show you a new perspective, and open your world to what's possible for you, helping way more people, making way more money, and making the difference you were born to make. Welcome everybody. I am excited to have you. Congratulations on doing whatever it took for you to be here, and listening in today, and really participating, because this symbolizes your commitment, your investment to yourself, and to those that you serve. Speaking of those that you serve, this season's theme on the Boost Your Sales & Lifestyle's show is "How To Sell To Women." We're going to explore proven ways to honor them, serve them, and inspire them to say "yes" to themselves. You're in the right place if you want to learn how to influence and attract women buyers into your business. That's right. Whether you are a man or it's a woman, if women are your clients, you are going to learn so much today. In fact, each of my guests on the show this season have been selected because they have made millions by knowing how to speak to women, how to serve women at the highest level. As I shared earlier, on today's episode, we're going to be diving in with Ali Brown. I want to take a minute to tell you a little bit about Ali, introduce you, because when it comes to my own entrepreneurial success path, I 1

2 have to say that there is no one more significant who really increased what I call "my having level," where I could look over there at another woman in the entrepreneurial space and say, "Wow, I [wonder 00:03:12] what's she's having." The level of what she was having was so far beyond anything I ever imagined for myself. The number of people she was helping, how gracefully, and eloquently, and elegantly, and beautifully she did, the abundance she was creating in her life and other people, it just showed me another possibility for myself. When I stepped into Ali Brown's world in 2009, my world completely transformed. It was the year that I took my business from $100,000 in sales as a one on one coach to... Sit down for this, over $2 million of sales only ten months later, from getting close to Ali, learning what Ali had to teach, and listening closely to what Ali has to say. That's why I am thrilled to have her on with us today, so we can hear about how she is reinventing her business model, changing how she sells, positioning herself to really stand out, what she's always done an incredible job with, and the way that she stepped up in the area of women's leadership. Ali has so many accolades that it literally would take me the entire call to share them all, but let's suffice it to say she's been ranked the Inc. 500 List of Fastest Growing Privately Held Companies in the nation. She has been featured on TV from everywhere from Fox Business Network, ABC News, E!, morning shows around the country. She's been named one of the Enterprising Women of the Year, one of Ernst & Young's winnings. The list just goes on and on with the philanthropies that she is committed to, grant programs that she has been awarded, Forbes Women to Watch, on, and on, and on. Without further ado, I want to spend every minute really learning from Ali, hearing how she is changing her model, changing the face of how she sells. Ali, I love you. I'm so happy you're here today. Welcome. You're my first guest on our new show! Sassy pants! I'm going to cry. That's the introduction of her. I have a quick funny story. I've gotten to know a new friend here in town. She didn't really know my whole world, and one day she starts talking about this, "I'm following this Lisa Sasevich," and I'm like, "I know her." She looks at me, and she's like, "You know sassy pants?" [Like she goes 00:05:31], "That's where I got 'sassy pants' from," and you are. Very funny. 2

3 You area a master implementer from the moment I've met you. You're just amazing to watch. I tell everyone to go and watch what you do, so no doubt this podcast will be sensational. Thank you. I appreciate it. When I'm introducing myself, I always say that I won Inc. 500 Fastest Growing Privately Held Companies two years in a row. I never would have even thought to apply, except when I started training with you was the year that you applied and won. You increased my "having level." I watch what you do. I look at this list of awards, and honors, and recognition that you've had which I'd be thrilled to accomplish half of that. It just raises my aspiration. That's what this show is about. For everybody listening here, it's to really raise your ambition level to come on to the show weekly with me and my guest, and listen to what's possible for you beyond what you're even thinking about. It's not even on the vision board, because it's bigger than that. That's really what I get in your world, and I love that we're bringing this together. Our theme is "How To Sell To Women." You and I, we serve women and men, but have a huge following of women, and a lot of it because of what we've been able to accomplish and model for people in our life. What I really noticed about you, Ali, is that you constantly reinvent yourself. You never just get into one model and stay there. I like that [crosstalk 00:07:09]. You are the Madonna of entrepreneurs. I love it. Is she touting twins like you? I hope not at her age. Right? I know. I'm actually going to see her in San Diego... Those pretty ones could do it.... In like a week or two. Oh my gosh! She's going to be here. It's like [her shares 00:07:30] final tour or something. If anyone could do it, she could. For sure. 3

4 Totally. That's true. Tell us about your reinvention. It's so sassy. I want to hear about this new sassy turn that you're taking here. I think many of you know my story, but I'll start at the point that Lisa was mentioning that for years I was known as the leader in the online marketing space as far as teaching the Blueprint. I called it "The Online Success Blueprint." It was fantastic. I'd love teaching it. I got to a point that I felt [this call 00:08:05] to do something different. What's really been interesting for me and several of the clients I've worked with... Not everybody, but very often, when you get to a certain level of success, then you become aware of something different you want. That could be very painful, especially when you feel like, "Wait, everything is finally working. I'm making money. This is awesome. The clients are happy, my team's happy, why would I go mess this up?" This has just been my path, that if you see me get really content, I'm about change. If everything is working, I'm about to go a different direction. The biggest lesson I have learnt in all of this and all the women I've worked with is that success for women means choices. We need to honor what we feel is best for us at the time. What I did over the last few years... No doubt, the biggest turning point was finally meeting the right guy, and then unexpectedly having twins, is deciding to re-engineer my business to a smaller model, but back to that low [headache 00:09:13] high net model and working with the clients I want. I'm giving you the [speed 00:09:19] story here, but what's interesting is for many of us, we start off by modeling formulas, which is how I started. It's how you started, Lisa, right? Mm-hmm (affirmative). Then we start changing them and creating our own. Every evolution for me over time has been about reinventing the model that's right for me at that time. For you, it may be reinventing the model that your clients need right now, and maybe reinventing a model that you see in your industry, but you're thinking, "No, no, it could be done this way," or "It could be done in a better way," or "in smaller way," or "a bigger way." It's important [that 00:09:59] we realize there's not "one size fits all," but when you're starting off, no doubt. Formulas are how we learn. I'm not a great cook, but I've gotten a lot better. Lisa, do you cook? I can't remember. I love it, when I get the time. I've just putting my priority in other things with a 9 and 12-year-old gymnastics and basketball. When I get in the kitchen, I'm pretty good there, but it's not as frequent as I'd like. 4

5 I love it when I have the time, exactly, like if the sports is not fun. When I have time like now, I really enjoy it. I've gotten better by... First of all, you follow the recipe exactly. You don't screw with it, exactly step by step. Then now I'm getting better with some things. I'm like, "You know what?" I'm looking at bread, and I'm like, "I'm going to add mushroom." He's like, "No." I'm like, "Yeah, let's see what happens." We start mixing it up, and this is how you start stepping into your personal power. There is no better place for you to be, once you've taken those steps, and you start to do the unproven. That is leadership. When you start to make decision and go to places that you see unproven so far in your industry, that is where the real courage happens, and that is absolutely attractive to people that get them to want to work with you. I love what you're saying. I have this analogy, and I appreciate how you started it with... You follow the recipe the first round. You get the dish to turn out totally based on the recipe. I'm sure you see this too. I have clients that come in and they're like, "Hey, I want to learn your teleseminar and webinar launch model, and I'm going to put these videos from this other model first, and then I'm going to add this over here... It's the first time.... They come in and start adding mushroom, like [a renegade 00:11:46]... I love that vow. The way I always tell them is, "Do you want to create a racehorse or a camel?" A racehorse, it's like one [flick 00:11:57] design, one purpose [of 00:11:58] the racehorse. The camel... They say the definition of a camel is a horse designed by committee. That's what we do... Six different mentors, and we're trying to put it all together, and add the mushrooms and the onions right out of the gate. I really appreciate what you're saying, and I think you're right. Once you get it down, great. Prove the model, then innovate. That's where you're really taking it to new levels with this whole area of inspiring leadership in women. I love what you just there, because I want to bring it back to those of you who are, I'd say [inspire 00:12:31] like really up into your multiple six figures. You should be starting models and start following models all the time. A lot of you are way over-complicating things. Just like you said, they're like, "I'm going to take this from this guy and do this and this," and I'm like, "All you need is a teleseminar. What are you doing. You don't need [12 hot 00:12:48] video series filmed around the world. You're selling ebook..." Exactly. 5

6 [There's simplicity 00:12:54]... We see people like Jeff Walker just came out with this launch where the videos look like movie productions. Like you said, people are just trying to get people on the phone to get them into their practice. We don t need a movie level. We don't need an Oscar Award winning set of videos to do that. You're right. Someone is always going to have better videos than you. Always. You just have to get over it. No, don't say that. It's not true. Someone does. Someone does, Lisa. I'm sorry, someone will, and someone will [crosstalk 00:13:24]. I might have to go. Can I call you back? I mean for all of us. I'm saying this to you listening, all of you. You have to get over that. It's so fun that we all watch [each other does 00:13:33] and we're like, "Men. Now she is beaming into their living room like hologram. What the hell?" It's just going to keep getting more and more hi-tech, and we have to get back to the basic, basic message and the basic connection we have with our clients and our contacts. I love what Lisa teaches, because she keeps it simple. It's like, "Why would you go screw this up? Just do it this way, and then add onto it once you've got the groove." How do you know, Ali? How do our listeners know? When is it time to get... I am the step by step queen. I give you all the basics. How do you know when it's time to reinvent, to start blazing your own trail? For me, it's a clue. I either get bored, or I start getting resentful of the model. This doesn't happen to everyone, so I don't want you to think like, "Wow, everything is working. Should I be wanting something more or [a call 00:14:27] to something greater? I'm just saying you'll know if you feel this. What I'm saying is if you do feel it, just give yourself permission to explore some other things. I got to the point that I built this very successful company. Everything was going great, and having the courage to turn to my team and say, "This isn't what I want anymore," was terrifying to me. It was terrifying to my ego. It was terrifying to who I thought I had become, and that my success looked this way, and if I did it this way instead, would I still be Ali Brown? Would I still be the leader that I am? 6

7 What I have realized over the process of the last several years is that I actually am the leader, because I have the courage to make those decisions and to go into areas that are unproven. That has become leadership in a whole new way. For all of us, this can look completely different. This is about you, and your courage, and where you feel called. The amazing thing is you will find that all your experience and everything that you've done has led you to where you are now, and will continue to fill you in the future. If you change your mind about a business venture, or a deal, or something that you thought you wanted, that's all part of the credibility that you'll actually have going forward as you're teaching and leading in your industry. I probably wouldn't qualify for Inc. 500 now. I'm down to like a team of five people and this small like just simple business, which is perfect, because I get to work a few days a week. I'm with my family more. We're going to travel. We just booked a trip to Australia for early spring. That now gave me... I did that, and that's credibility, which is something you do need to build for whatever you're doing. You may have a benchmark that you want to hit. Maybe it's that million-dollar business. Maybe it's six figures. Maybe you have a dream that you want to win a certain award. Those things do help. Absolutely. Being on media, all this stuff is what we call positioning, because like it or nor, you could be the most brilliant person at what you do, but there are certain factors in your bio, your history, your experience that will make people say "yes" faster, because they trust you. Like, "Wow, Lisa has been Inc Ali has been Inc That means they have built really successful companies at one time or the other." That changes everything. I remember when I went for the Inc. 500, it was just out of context. In our industry previously, this whole coaching consulting, no one did that. No one ever looked at that and said, "I'm going to fill out the form." I just [felt 00:17:24] saying, "Perfect, that was the first thing I thought. It is like no one is doing this. I'm going to [apply 00:17:30] for this." As I did it, and then many of my colleagues and people who were clients of mine started to do it, it actually gave our industry more credibility. You're right. You did a game-changing move, because now so many of us have accomplished it. You're right. It lifted us all up. That's one thing I always say about you behind your back, if you really want to know, is that Ali, she goes first and then takes others with her. I tried to do that in my business from really how much I love the way that I enjoyed it in yours. 7

8 Ali, can we talk specifically... When we look at this idea of reinventing, our theme is "How To Sell To Women." Obviously you attract so many women clients, and it never feels like selling. They find you, they resonate, there's a frequency, and they come in. Can you share with maybe how it used to be, and really the model that you... How have you changed the way that you sell, especially given that you are primarily attracting women clients? What's changed for you? What's your new reinvention in that area? That angle? Yeah. I really have done kind of a [180 00:18:49]... I don't want to call it reverse selling, but it's just like I've reached a point that people are coming to me, and it's really cool. I don't have events anymore. I have small workshops for a certain level of woman who wants to attend, that [in our 00:19:06] leadership workshops [that repower 00:19:07], and then I have one coming up this fall, the Elevate Leadership Retreat. Women can come, and then honestly, it's interesting. Listen, I'm not saying that you all can go do this out the gate. This is when you get to a certain point, but it's really cool being kind of like the wise woman at the top of the mountain, and then people are like... You know what? I had our client call a few months ago, and I ended up talking with her. She said, "I know I'm ready to work with you." I said, "Why?" She goes, "Because you're the one that everyone says, "When you get to this point, now you need to go work with Ali Brown." That felt so good. That was just so cool, to have someone calling us and saying, "I want to work with Ali. Tell me about her group. Does she have a spot open? What is it like?" I can't give you a specific formula, but if you watch what I do now, it's very more understated. I stopped doing the Ezine, because you were all just sick of that freaking thing. [inaudible 00:20:08]. Oh my God! You stopped doing the [Ezine 00:20:11]! Wait, I need a drink of water. I have to breathe. Not really. I have to [crosstalk 00:20:15]. A lot of you don't know, but early started as the Ezine Queen. I was the Ezine Queen when I started... That's how I found her.... I'm sick of them. Last year it felt funny. My team [crosstalk 00:20:25]. 8

9 It's like letting go of a sacred cow. [inaudible 00:20:28]. I'm on the phone with my team, and they were like, "We need this for the Ezine. We need..." Blah, blah, blah. I said, "You know what?" They were like, "What?" I'm like, "Screw the Ezine." They were like, "What?" "Let's stop it." I'm like, "Why don't we publish when we have something to say," and they were like, "Huh!" Then they were like, "Yay! We hated that [inaudible 00:20:48]." The truth comes out. What are you replacing for our listeners that are like, "Oh my God, I finally got my Ezine down." What are some of your other ways to keep people apprised of what's going on, all the purposes that the Ezine [crosstalk 00:21:04] You have to stay in touch. How are you filling that? You all have to realize I've been doing that thing for like 17 years. It was time to change [it up 00:21:12]. Now I do a simple text s now to my list about what I'm thinking, leading to a blog post. I had a post the other day about the things that I'm dealing with and I know that a lot of women they're up at the high six figures, seven figure marks are dealing with and topic like, "When do you actually tell your team about your bold new ideas? Do you run and tell them everything right away?" You don't have to. Oftentimes, it's better to let something kind of percolate for a while before you go back to them. It's just like these are the ones I'm talking about when you're stepping into that next level of your business and that leadership you're going to encounter. You're facing more casual tone now. It's more of just an format. Also admittedly, that way in this way, I don't need so many team members to work on it. [With all 00:22:00] the same results, but with simplifying it and making it feel and look different. It had to be fun for me again. I want to emphasize that everything has to be a joyful process for me now. I actually don't force myself to every week. Do I recommend ing at least weekly? Absolutely, but right now, I have two-year-old twins, we're about to start travelling, I'm giving myself a lot more permission to not be so regimented as I used to. Setting up those systems is guaranteed to get you more business, no question, but I'm in this questioning phase, just giving myself more permission to do this, because everything is just going so nicely. That's awesome. It's funny when you mentioned you're going to Australia, I remember it was, actually, I think it was 2009 or '10 when we did a course that we offered together, and simply irresistible. Now in our 9

10 campus, it's become speak to sell [inaudible 00:23:00]. That whole body of work has developed into our flagship program. You walked me through how to do a five-part teleseries, and you were leaving for Australia actually at the very end of it. Remember we were saying, "People want more? What should we offer?" You were like, "You take over. You can do VIP days. I'm leaving for Australia." I remember when you went what a different life you have now. You're going with two-year-old twins and a husband. Oh my gosh, I know. I remember you sending all the pictures of the kangaroos. I have a feeling, talk about reinventing, that for the life you're embarking on with travel, with family, that being able to just get theory out and talk about this moment in Australia is going to be so fun for you when you hit the road. There are just so many lesson learned, so many things that... I know it happens for me too. I dictate into my notes and my iphone, and I'm just capturing a moment. I love what we're getting from you with your new format. I read your article about whether you tell your team the whole thing. I really want to encourage everybody to make sure they connect with Ali. You'll see if you go to boostyoursalesshow.com/episode2, you'll get Ali's website there. It's alibrown.com. You'll see it listed there. She has this just awesome Top 10 Success Secrets for Entrepreneurial Women. It's more of what we're talking about today. You'll get the show notes, the transcripts, and her bonus audio download with the Top 10 Success Secrets for Entrepreneurial Women. She's so laid back right now. She probably would forget to even tell about it, so I'm... Thank you. You're right. I am going to. I will comment on that. I'll tell you that audio, it's been around a while, but I get more comments on that audio from women who [write 00:24:50] my Facebook page and say, "I keep that in my car, and sometimes it will get me [tiree 00:24:55]. You will help me feel what's possible. It's still a fantastic audio. It's one of the best response to any product that I've put out there, and you can get it free. That's awesome. Definitely, head on over and grab all of that goodness. Again, it's boostyoursalesshow.com/episode2, and you can grab all of that. Ali, talking about women, what have you found... You've worked with so many women all over the world, every level of business. You're 10

11 working so much with the higher level entrepreneurial women now. What doesn't work when selling to women? What is a no-no? On the surface level, there is the stuff that I think we all cringe at and that we saw a lot of in the internet marketing space in the early years. We would just go to these events, and watch, and be like, "Are you kidding me? This is how they're talking to these people." It's a lot of strong-arming and manipulative kind of feel. I think really, the word "authenticity" is the most overused word right now, but it's still... I don't know a better word for it, is being real, and just having real honest conversations with your prospects and clients, and they will appreciate that. Where we go wrong as women even selling to women is we don't own our power, and that conversation still has to be powerful. You have to come from a very strong place of "I can help you." It's in that person's interest to work with you, whether they choose to or not. You have to know that so deep in your soul and your bones and your whole body when you are having these conversations, otherwise you will [flab it 00:26:32]. You will [flab it 00:26:33], and you feel like, "I don't know what to say. I don't know what to do," When you really get in that moment where you know you have a gift, and you have a talent, and you have something to bring to this world... This is where you have to put yourself in this place before you have any of these conversations, that is where you come to a place of confidence. People will buy... They buy confidence. They buy certainty. We know nothing in the world is certain, but change, but that's people want, that feeling. That's why people work with you, Lisa. You give them the sense of certainty and confidence. It's like, "Here is the formula. Come with me. Let's do this together, I'll be by your side." Like there is no going wrong with what Lisa teaches. You have to feel the exact same way when you are talking with these people, and especially the women, because often when you're working with women as well, and then when you are having a sales conversation, it's like this aspect of permission. You almost have to help them give themselves permission to invest in themselves, permission to step up, permission to want what they really want, instead of saying, "I can't do this right now," or "I don't think I have the money right now." "I want this so badly, but it's not the right time," or "My husband is not going to approve of this," or "I have ten kids," or whatever your excuses are. You have to be very strong with them. Not in a manipulative way, but just a very confident place, and to make them feel like you can have this confidence too, and you can have this in your life, and you deserve to have this. There is this step... It's like a pre-step you have to take often 11

12 when having these conversations with women, that it's kind of the deserving factor that I find with... Most men are like, "Of course I deserve this. Here, let me find out." Do you know what I'm talking, Lisa? Yeah, I do. That's why I was naming it your "having level." I recommend you, not only of course grab the show notes, Ali's Secrets for Entrepreneurial Women, but that will put you on her campus. It will have you getting her updates. You want to be on this show weekly to hang close to myself, to Ali, to women who have grabbed something big that inspire you. If we do that for you, you want to stay close, to have us on your subscription. It's the same thing that Ali and I do, and it's just harder and harder to find the folks that you can really feel close to, trust, and grab onto. I think that's why both with her show Glambition... Ali has a fabulous show that you will also want to subscribe to and here, it's really what we look to bring to you. For me, I love the structure. My belief is that structure gives you freedom, especially in the area of selling your own services. I'm looking to give you that freedom, to give you that confidence. What I love that Ali is bringing here today is the permission aspect of that, and the reinvention after you've proven the model, and the consciousness of "you do need to do things to position yourself." The Inc. 500 wouldn't matter if she beat out everybody else there if she didn't do the application. She would not have that positioning, plus all of the radio shows, the magazines, the TV shows, the awards. You have to take the action for those positioning pieces, and it's a whole different category what Ali is talking about. It is leadership, and positioning, then sales conversion. You've got to get that sales conversion piece in place, because then all that leadership and recognition, it's reverse engineered to lead somewhere. I think we are beautiful one-two punch, my friend. I have to say on next week's show, there is another Ali disciple, someone from planet Ali that has, at the same time as [me 00:30:31], just took off, and soared, and rose to success. Again, I could not have anyone else but early on the first show and J. J. Virgin coming up next week on our next show. Yay! She is another multimillion dollar successful entrepreneur. While I am in the sales and marketing in business space, J. J. Shot out using Ali's same systems, inspiration, teaching, leadership strategies, and really became the top player in the health and wellness, celebrity nutrition and wellness expert, J. J. Virgin. You'll be learning a lot more, for those of you who 12

13 have practices. You're in the health and well-being field or you're just ready for inspiration from yet another woman who has boost her sales and lifestyle. We'll be having J. J. on the show next week. [She just looks 00:31:21] better and better. Doesn't it kill you? She just gets younger and younger. I know. It's not fair... I'm always like [inaudible 00:31:25]... Tell me. Tell me. What do you do? What are you doing? Tell us what's the newest laser? [crosstalk 00:31:30] like what lasers. I love that stuff. I love that [just will do 00:31:34]. Me too. Use all advantages. Anyway, everybody... Ali, you are amazing. I just looked up at the time, and I'm like, "Oh my God, I thought it's been five minutes," but I know you know I need to let you go. I really want to make sure that all of you [lucken 00:31:50] your future, and you're learning with both of us. Be sure to visit boostyoursalesshow.com/episode2. Again, there will be show notes there, the transcript, because there were so many nuggets. I know you'll want to just pull up the transcript. Ali's bonus audio download "Top 10 Success Secrets for Entrepreneurial Women," it is totally uplifting. It will totally raise your ambition, your aspiration, so grab that. Then definitely join us here next week for J. J. Virgin celebrity health and wellness nutrition and amazing "Six Weeks to Sleeveless and Sexy and The Virgin Diet," and everything else like that. Also, make sure to subscribe to Ali's show. She has the most amazing guests, high level women in leadership who've been some of your [someone 00:32:41]. We just had a... [Someone's too 00:32:42], we just some Samantha Brown [crosstalk 00:32:44]. It's called Glambition, right? Glambition Radio. We just Samantha Brown from the Travel Channel. We've had Alli Webb from Drybar. We have had... Why do I always blank out my own show with these incredible people? You do. These are the people that are in every... If there's any women in any Forbes, or Inc., or any big business publication or magazine, Ali is 13

14 interviewing all of them. In fact, I need to get to the Drybar. I'm glad you said that. I need to make an appointment. What would we do without Drybar? All right my love. Thank you for being here with us today and bringing so much permission to step up, be ourselves, reinvent, [ask approving 00:33:29] models, getting some things in place. I'm excited to continue to watch what you do and how you reinvent. Get more pictures of kangaroos this time, this time with two little two-year-old twins in the picture. I know. I don't want to think about the flight. All right. Thanks everybody. We look forward to seeing you next week with J. J. Virgin. Ali, I love you darling. Thanks for being here today. Thank you. Bye. Bye. 14